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Thread: Rubbing Out Poly

  1. #1
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    Rubbing Out Poly

    Hi all: I have put about 6 coats of gloss poly on a black walnut table top (74"x38") destined for a busy kitchen and lots of abuse. I've tried rubbing it out wet with wet/dry sandpaper of various grits ranging from 400 to 2000. I have achieved perfect flatness, but in every case, it leaves the surface somewhat cloudy and dull. However if I apply Briwax and buff it out, it snaps to life and becomes clear again with a nice satin look. My goal is to achieve a satin finish that doesn't have that white/chalky cloudy look, but I'm concerned that by relying on the Briwax, it will become a maintenance chore to keep it looking nice.

    Is it possible to achieve a satin look without the white/chalky cloudyness? Do I need to go finer than 2000?

    Any comments or ideas will be greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
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    Well...it IS polyurethane varnish which is designed to resist abrasion...and rubbing out is all about using abrasion to get your desired results. I wonder if you might not be best served by spraying a final coat of satin on top of your gloss. (after completely removing the BriWax...) Also, rubbing it out with sandpaper once it's flat isn't the way I've understood that folks process things. (Sandpaper is easy to cause extra scratching) they use powdered abrasives, such as pumice, etc., to take things to the sheen they want. (I don't know if that works with Poly, however...alkyd or phenolic vanishes it will for sure)
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    Jim is correct about the difficulties of achieving an evenly rubbed out finish with poly. If you do need to rub out poly, then be sure to let it cure for a month before attempting it. You need it as hard as possible.

    Sandpaper with 2000 grit isn't quite fine enough to achieve a good satin finish, but I wouldn't recommend just going finer with sandpaper. I would use sand paper to about 1200 grit and then shift to a rubbing compound.

    If you can apply a satin finish without excessive dust nibs or other defects that may be the way to go for a final coat.

    Another alternative if the rubbing compound doesn't achieve the results you want is to sand with 320 and apply an alkyd enamel as the final coat to be rubbed out. It too needs a month to cure, but will rub out more evenly. It will still offer plenty of protection to the table, assuming you don't plan to walk on it with street shoes on.

  4. #4
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    Thanks

    Jim/Steve: Thanks for the comments. The initial game plan was to build with gloss, then do a satin for the final coat, but the dust, brush marks, etc. just make it impossible. So then, I thought I'd pay a pro to spray on the satin. I contacted several finishers and they all told me I'd get better results rubbing it out. Live and learn.

    The finish I get after applying the Briwax is absolutely beautiful, so I may stick with that.

    Steve: What is alkyd enamel?



  5. #5
    There is a product, an automotive product called Finesse 2. I generally apply it after wet sanding my projects. It has to be buffed in and the finish usually lasts a few years. You can find it in automotive stores.

    Bob

  6. #6
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    Alkyd is the resin traditionally used in varnish and enamel. If varnish doesn't say polyurethane then it is most likely alkyd. Most real paint stores would carry such an enamel. It will cure harder than a poly enamel, hence rubbing out more satisfactorily.

    As far as Finnesse II goes it is a fine polishing compound by 3M. It might end at a glossier level than you want, but is considered a good product. It has no wax or silicone.

  7. #7
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    Tom,

    I think the wax is enough and that you should *not* apply any more poly on top or you'll lose all the hard work you've done.

    I have attached a picture of an end-table finished in about the steps you've done. Several coats of gloss poly with paste wood filler after the 1st coat to fill the pores, let the poly dry completely after the last coat was applied, sand using wet/dry paper and water as a lubricant up thru 2000. As a final step I applied Minwax using a #0000 steel wool pad and buffed with a soft cloth. The finish is quite durable and only needs the occasional waxing (as in 2x a year, if that). I have an oak-veneer table-top I did the same way but don't have a picture of it handy; little maintenance is needed other than wiping with a damp rag as needed. I know how you feel about the sanding; every time I do this I start with the glossy surface but need to remove dust and other nibs and all of a sudden it looks dull and I wonder "oh heck; what did I just do???" but the final stage of waxing gets it to what I want.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Kyle Robinson; 11-13-2006 at 7:07 PM.

  8. #8
    Tom, I have done that very same thing you have been doing, but with QTR sawn white oak. I built a dining room table and chairs a year ago, and every few months I go over the top with bri wax. It looks great!
    Michael and Sally Pfau
    Grant Creek Woodworks
    Missoula Montana
    www.grantcreekwoodworks.com

  9. #9
    My first input to this forum, so hope I am not making "newbie" mistakes!
    Concerning rubbing out poly: I have been using poly/naptha or poly/mineral spirits in a 50/50 mix for some years, and have always needed to rub out (0000 steel wool or fine grit sanding) to remove dust nibs, etc.
    Am now in process of finishing a new table top, and have been rubbing out each coat with only the palm of my hand, just when the coat is dry enough to not be sticky. My shop is dusty, and dust nibs have always been a problem, but this literal "hand rubbing" is the best solution to that problem I have ever tried.

  10. #10
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    Carey, "rubbing out" generally refers to "finishing the finish" rather than elimination of dust nibs, etc., during the finishing process. It's a way of refining the sheen from/to very glossy or somewhere more toward the satin look.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #11
    Jim:
    Sorry about jumping into a thread that started out without any mention of dust nibs, but the originator and a later reply did mention the dust nib problem, so my post intended to address just that problem. Unfortunately, I know of no other description of what I did to keep dust nibs from ever forming, that "rubbing out"! If you can prevent having anything settle in not yet dry finish, then the real "rubbing out" process might be a little easier.

  12. #12
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    Nothing to be sorry about, Carey!!!! I kinda call the dust nib elimination "knocking them down"...but language is so much fun! Rubbing out, while it can entain steel or synthetic pads and abrasive paper, also generally includes use of powdered abrasives, such as pumice and rottenstone. Of course, and as I mentioned earlier, poly isn't the best finish to be "rubbing out" in the context of finishing the finish given it's abrasion resistance properties.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 11-25-2006 at 2:37 PM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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