What is happening around here???

[Jon Eckels]

I had wanted to reply to this conversation in the topic I created, but since the topic was closed, i'll chime in here.

Theres a well defined line between censorship and moderation. A moderator by definition is meant to moderate. To be a voice of reason and keep a conversation going in a civil mannner. When it becomes a moderator's job to make a decision on whether or not an entire thread has merit, that moderator ceases to be a moderator and becomes a censor.

I'm all for keeping discussion civil. I dislike the trolls. I'm frustrated by brand-wars, etc. So, I don't dispute for a minute the need for good and constant moderation. But keep the moderation moderate.

And before someone says it again... I've read the TOS. I understand what it says. I know it says that the moderators can do exactly what we're discussing. This isn't my point. I, and apparently several others, think the system that you've laid out in general for the moderators to follow is far too heavy, and that's why people have voiced their concerns.

I know it's someone else's house, and of course I have to follow someone else's rules. But there's a lot of people in this house that I look up to, and theres a lot of knowledge I can learn here. Personally, I don't stay because of the way this place is moderated. I stay in spite of it. I want to be here among members who can teach me. I'm sure many others do too.

I believe there's far more than the 2% that keith described in the other thread that are frustrated by this manner of "moderation". I just think that since the threads at issue just suddenly disappear, there's a whole lot of people who just don't know what's going on.

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
The original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[John Branam]

If this is about what I think it is, your deleted posts would not have made any sense after some others were removed for being "way" off topic and on or over the line relative to the TOS. There really isn't the time to explain everything that is done when moderating a large, fast-paced site like this.

Keith has said this. Ken has said this. Aaron has said this. And I'm saying it. Nobody likes to delete anything, but sometime one must make a decision to do so for the good of the community. Yes, that is subjective. But it still needs to happen.

Jim
SMC Moderator

In my opinion it seems that to often posts are deleted too quickly, I did not see any responses that were over the line, I did see a poster taking a direct shot at the moderators though is that why those were deleted? Or were there further replies?

Again just my opinion. Censorship means different things to different people. I feel there is censorship with in these forums, but the wealth of information here to me out weighs that negative aspect.

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
The original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Holy smokes! where in the world did this thread go?? all I can say is later.... this place has definately started to change too much for my liking....and this is not meant to offend anyone, especially the hard working moderators....just the nature of the Internet I guess and the reaction people have with some of us whom have very strong opinions...

I will not even begin to respond to some of the people that responded to me in this thread....

[Keith Outten]

I have no knowledge of what our Moderators do and what threads or posts they edit. I must have faith in the decisions they make and support them or the program doesn't work.

The Dust Collection thread was my decision to remove and the reason is that the thread was based on a disagreement between two people who represent commercial interests. SMC is not the proper place to air their debate.

The subject of dust collection is interesting and I wish that the thread had been started in a different manner but the tone and direction made it impossible to have it remain public. We could all learn from two well known knowledgeable people sharing their views concerning dust collection, had the thread been in that light it would never have been touched.

If anyone wants to challenge their commercial competitor SMC isn't the proper venue.

[Marty Walsh]

I have no knowledge of what our Moderators do and what threads or posts they edit. I must have faith in the decisions they make and support them or the program doesn't work.

Keith,

I for one find this VERY hard to believe, if it's in fact true. In spite of this being purported to be a "community supported by it's members", it's been shown to be "your sandbox'. Heck, you said it today..."I write the music here...". How on earth can you hand the controls of your sandbox over to folks you don't at least audit?

Perhaps that explains why you don't see the point being made by more and more people around here. You're missing what we're being subjected to!

In fact, we're all missing what we're being subjected to. I can't tell you how many times I've been reading a thread when suddenly posts disappear, or their content changes. That's beyond annoying! It's wrong!

I've been thinking about a modification to the vBulletin software that keeps the creek flowing...a simple script that would insert a line in a thread whenever a moderator deletes or edits a post. The one liner could include the moderators name, the offending posters name, and a disclaimer that the post was deleted because it "violated the TOS".

I know all too well that the "job" of moderator is a mostly thankless job. In general, I think the mods here do a good job of keeping the creek flowing. There are, however, more and more occasions of late where they've been changing the flow, instead of merely keeping it running. There doesn't even seem to be a rhyme or reason to their actions. And without an audit trail, I can't even help you to identify the offenders.

The Dust Collection thread was my decision to remove and the reason is that the thread was based on a disagreement between two people who represent commercial interests. SMC is not the proper place to air their debate.

The subject of dust collection is interesting and I wish that the thread had been started in a different manner but the tone and direction made it impossible to have it remain public. We could all learn from two well known knowledgeable people sharing their views concerning dust collection, had the thread been in that light it would never have been touched.

If anyone wants to challenge their commercial competitor SMC isn't the proper venue.

Ok Keith, I don't disagree with you on this. I think Mr. Witter made a horrible tactical mistake when he opted to post the way he did. A personal attack on a commercial competitor in a public venue causes more lost credibilty than he might realize. (Although as a CEO of a relatively successful business, he has to have SOME business savvy...)

Let me ask you something...WHY DID IT TAKE NINETY ONE posts for the thread to get deleted? Were the mods enjoying the rhetoric? Were they busy deleting other posts/threads?

I hope you can discern from the tone of this post that I'm not thrilled with the way things are going around here. You made a point of singling out three members in another thread, claiming that they're part of the 2% that would complain if you "gold plated the hinges on the gate to the creek".

Know this Keith, if others thought they could "safely" speak their mind, without suffering the wrath of the mods or you, they would. I've spoken with several members of this forum, and I'm not alone in what I see happening.

We've already established in another thread that the value of the creek is the intellectual capital that it's member contribute. Keep in mind what happens to your potential commercial ventures if/when the "creek runs dry". Not a threat...merely an observation.

Long live the creek...I hope...
- Marty -

[Mike Lawler]

The Dust Collection thread was my decision to remove and the reason is that the thread was based on a disagreement between two people who represent commercial interests. SMC is not the proper place to air their debate.

The subject of dust collection is interesting and I wish that the thread had been started in a different manner but the tone and direction made it impossible to have it remain public. .

I can learn from a debate...

[Marty Walsh]

I can learn from a debate...

Mike,

We can ALL learn from a debate, when it's presented within the guidelines of the TOS of the creek. The way Mr Witter opted to start off the 'debate' was in direct violation of the TOS. And I quote:

"2. Disagreements, Flaming, and Personal or Professional Attacks

Disagreements are almost certain to occur. Members shall be respectful of dissenting opinions and refrain from name-calling, personal or professional attacks. Messages that contain critical content must provide all factual information pertinent to the problem and enough data to support any claims or complaints. "

That's what really has me wondering why it took Keith to delete the thread after NINETY ONE POSTS. It should have been yanked as soon as ANY mod saw it.

An intelligent, fact based debate on any subject related to WW'ing is always welcome. What Mr. Witter did, and got away with has me wondering...

- Marty -

[Corey Hallagan]

Charles I would have to put you at the top of the list when it comes to Reps in forums. I have never seen you post a "hey look what we have etc. " I think you are nothing but helpfull in any forum you participate in. Kudo's to you!

Corey

[Keith Outten]

Marty,

Thanks for your comments and willingness to step up. The reason I mentioned that I have no knowledge of any underlying problem here is because it is true. You would think that if there were that many people who had serious concerns about our Community I would have received at least several Private Messages with warnings and details of the issues.

I have not received any such warnings therefore I cannot know of any problem that might exist. I do remember one Private Message that may have contained a reference but it was so subtle I missed the clue, in fact I dismissed the problem as it did not register as a serious issue at the time.

Not one of our Moderators has contacted me concerning any issue that they are aware of that they feel is a serious concern, either privately or publicly. You would think that if a large portion of our Community had serious concerns there would be at least be one on our Staff that Members could trust to discuss the matter. I know for a fact that there are at least a hundred Members here that I am particularly friendly with and not one of them would be intimidated or feel insecure discussing any topic that concerned them here at SMC. These are also the folks that I depend on to thump me over the head if I make a major mistake and they are very reliable.

In a nutshell there have not been any signs or communication that pointed to a problem. The issues that I have been involved with concerning public violations of our TOS and those who are so verbal concerning their displeasure here have been all out in the open without anyone specifically pointing to any particular issue other than our censorship of their posts which I disagree with and have stated my views publicly.

The majority here feel I have been to slow to step in and in most cases when I do I always receive PM's of thanks for stopping the latest problem thread. In short my report card has been near perfect behind the scenes but it seems there is another side to the story that I am unaware or the group that is experiencing the unrest is the 2% I mentioned in an earlier post.

Why did it take 91 posts for the dust collection thread to be deleted? The answer is simple, the thread started at 4:10 PM and posts were made quickly throughout the evening untill the last post that was made at 5:30 AM when I moved it to our Moderators Forum. The thread has not been deleted, I just checked it to verify the times from start to finish. When our Staff login to SMC and they use the "View New Posts" function they often see 4 to 5 pages of new posts. Knowing that we can't view them all during one visit we often wait until a thread sees a lot of activity before we drop in for a look see. This demonstrates our trust in our Members to report problem threads as they often do and our knowledge that we will catch up with a problem thread sooner or later. Only two of our Moderators have the capability to edit any Forum, this needs to be changed soon as we need to be more flexible with such a small Staff. We all try to concentrate on the Forums we are assigned but we try to watch each others Forums as much as we can knowing that our Staff schedules vary enough to provide better coverage.

I have two jobs in addition to my duties here at SMC. I also take every opportunity to do some woodworking when I can which is what I was doing when this thread started.

I am in fact very passionate about SawMill Creek and have worked very hard to maintain a place that woodworkers of all ages can visit and participate at any level they feel comfortable. I have constantly reaffirmed my promise to keep all advertising out of our Community and have kept my promise. I have taken on personal debt in order to keep the Creek online for everyone as I assumed all of the debt our previous owner had in order for me to assume ownership of SMC. I have also assumed the legal risks that ownership of an online forum brings to the table. All this without any financial gain...not one penny.

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Today one of our Members suggested that our Staff should divulge any relationships that they might have that would influence the decisions they make. I will volunteer mine if it will make him happy.

- I work in the Architechs Office at Christopher Newport University, an employee of the State of Virginia.
- My sign business, Northwind Associates owns SawMill Creek and is responsible for its hosting and contractual obligations.
- I don't work for or receive any compensation from any company other than the two I have listed above.
- My soul belongs to me, it has never been sold for financial or any other type of personal gain and I don't owe anyone any business favors that would affect any decision I might make concerning SawMill Creek Woodworkers Forums.

When you visit SMC the server actually resides in my workshop office so you are technically visiting my shop. All I have ever asked is a bit of respect for my efforts as your host and an acknowledgement that I too am a woodworker and Member of The Creek who enjoys the company of friends. I have often admitted in the last three years that I make mistakes every now and then but in spite of any error I may make my intentions are honorable, and I have to endure more flak than any one of you can imagine. I do this because in late October of 2005 hundreds of my friends asked me to keep the Creek flowing.

.

[Bruce Page]

Keith, you have my utmost respect. I personally like how SMC is run.

[Corey Hallagan]

I'll second that Bruce!

Corey

[Jim Tobias]

From some of this (very little) that I have read, it just seems that too many people are coming to SMC looking for an argument to make as opposed to looking for woodworking information. If you can't disagree in a civil manner and discuss, just get mad (on your own) , count to 10 and go back and sand or cut a board.

Jim

[Ian Barley]

FWVVLITOH I agree with a lot of what Marty has to say.

[Mark Woodward]

Stu / Ken it was precisely that point I was trying to make myself. I too feel it is much better to lock a thread off and explain why, rather than just pull it. It closes the door to the critism of "cencorship" that way.

We used to have one that said "Due to either a violation of terms or to prevent ill feeling between members, this thread has now been closed. In the interests of harmony, it is requested all members respect this decision and those of others on this site. The Moderators."

We found it worked really well with only ocasional crys of complaint.
Do please consider it!

Kind regards
mark

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
The original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[Ken Salisbury]

I've been thinking about a modification to the vBulletin software that keeps the creek flowing...a simple script that would insert a line in a thread whenever a moderator deletes or edits a post. The one liner could include the moderators name, the offending posters name, and a disclaimer that the post was deleted because it "violated the TOS".

Every post that is edited or deleted has a line at the very bottom that says "last edited by ______ Reason:________" (see the line at the bottom of this post)

When a post is deleted there is also a message that says why.

Maybe you are missing these.

Let me ask you something...WHY DID IT TAKE NINETY ONE posts for the thread to get deleted? Were the mods enjoying the rhetoric? Were they busy deleting other posts/threads?

As threads progress and violations start to happen they do so very rapidly. We as moderators do not sit here all day and review a thread every twenty minutes to see if everything is kosher. We do have lives other than SMC. Sometimes it is as long as 12 - 14 hours before a moderator may get to a thread. A lot of stuff can happen in such a time frame and there are 100's of threads changed on a daily basis which need review. We do the best we can. However, no matter how hard we try there will always be the few who think they can do it better.