What is happening around here???

[Bud Zysk]

A sentence was added after my post. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.

I read that before and after too. Mr. Rudd is correct.

[Doug Shepard]

Take a Chill-Pill folks. It's just this sort of short-tempered sniping that degenerated into a nasty bash-fest and got the original thread yanked. From what I saw, while a bit confrontational, the 2 posts by Mr Witter were at least civil. The really negative posts seemed to come from others that chimed in. It would have been a very interesting thread if it had been left entirely to Mssrs Witter and Pentz to debate the merits. I for one would still like to see that debate without all the distractions from the peanut gallery.

[Mike Dauphinee]

I had a great day yesterday visiting an old friend and trying out my new particle and mass gauges to test the airflow and particle levels in his shop.

Upon getting home, well after my attorney's office closed I learned of this Robert Witter post. I wanted to contact my attorney to ensure my response did not open me up to a slander or libel suit from Oneida-Air. I emailed Keith asking permission to respond by first allowing him to review my response before it was posted. This morning I awoke to find that thread gone. For those who were so supportive, my thanks. For those I've offended, my apologies. For the SMC moderators who have a difficult job, my sincere appreciation.

bill

Bill- I for one accept your apology and I look forward to your return to data driven information and conclusions based solely upon fact as you educate us on your findings Expect your conclusions to come into question where they don't line up or fact appears to be missing. That seems a fair process at reaching the truth. Good on you for humbling yourself as best you could on this unfortunate exchange....now lets put words to action.

[Darryl Gender]

Chuck,

Mark is right that I meant no disrespect to those in general that lurk. I agree that it is the way many learn from the posts and you don't need to post to be a member of the community. My intent was to separate the company reps who contribute from those that do not. I apologize for not being more clear.

Charles, I have lurked here for a long time. I'm not new to WW'ing but I have never joined a discussion before. I had to register to tell you the admiration I have for your input and the input of others representing their company. It is rare to see negative attacks on the competition.

I hope all the reps keep up the good work.

[Charles McCracken]

Hi Darryl,

Thank you for the support and welcome to the group. Reading the advice and ideas here is a great way to learn and improve our woodworking skills. I hope to see more posts from you as well (careful though, it can become addictive).

[Darryl Gender]

Hi Darryl,

Thank you for the support and welcome to the group. Reading the advice and ideas here is a great way to learn and improve our woodworking skills. I hope to see more posts from you as well (careful though, it can become addictive).

Thanks but I'm a reader, and not much of a talker. I have gathered tons of information here.

[Keith Outten]

I would like to second Darryl's comment and thank Mr. McCracken for joining SawMill Creek. We have publicly announced that we would like to include the people who build and design the tools and equipment we purchase in our Community. There are some rough edges with this philosophy but we will overcome any problems that arise and all benefit from a closer relationship.

Bill,

I got your message this morning, I just haven't had time to respond. I do appreciate your efforts and candor and I will get back to ASAP.

[skip coyne]

I dont understand why folks just cant ignore and hit the back button if they see something they dont like.

I saw a post today with someone aslking the moderators to lock the thread becouse he didnt like what he read ..

you dont like it , go to another thead. lots of them here .

[Jeff Kerr]

I also posted to the now yanked thread on this subject. I understand SMC's TOS and rules, but I respectfully disagree.

First of all I am an adult and capable of communicating my point of view within the terms of the TOS. I am also capable of reading threads and determining that what is being said is just "trash" from someone with a chip on their shoulder.

Maybe I don't understand what is involved behind the scenes to moderate and support these forums but it seems to me that what should be edited out would be the individual messages that are in violation. repeat offenders should be barred from posting. But the overall thread should be preserved so that we as thinking adults can observe and absorb what is being said.

I will not start the topic up again, but I am glad that I took the time to save a copy of the original post to my hard drive so that I can re-read it to hopefully increase my own knowledge of the subject. There was a lot of information there and while I cannot validate any of it as being accurate or bashing I should at least be given the opportunity to digest it.

I am glad I read the entire thread last night (75 responses when I finished) but I am saddened that SMC has determined that I should not be allowed to look at it any longer. I realize that some of what was said was over the top and biased or personal. But it should be for the readers to decide what we want to read.

Again, I respectfully disagree and hope that SMC will reconsider these actions for future posts.

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
Jeff, the original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[Chuck Hanger]

Chuck,

Mark is right that I meant no disrespect to those in general that lurk. I agree that it is the way many learn from the posts and you don't need to post to be a member of the community. My intent was to separate the company reps who contribute from those that do not. I apologize for not being more clear.

I apologize for any disruption that I may have caused to this thread.
Mr. McCracken, I thank you for clearing the issue up.
Chuck

[Keith Outten]

Four Members have used the word censorship in this thread. I strongly disagree with the constant abuse of the word and the implication that anyone here controls what we are allowed to see. The issue is a bit more complex than some have been able to grasp so I will try to explain it in simple terms.

If you exceed the speed limit and are caught you pay a fine. You broke the rules.

If you violate our TOS your thread will most likely be removed. You broke the rules.

The person who removes your thread isn't violating any of your rights because you don't have the right to break our rules here, it is just that simple.

You agreed to abide by all of the rules when you registered.

Once again I will state in plain language that I did not make the rules here, they were established by the Members of this Community so quit your complaining and get over it, our TOS isn't going to change to make a very small group happy.

[John Branam]

Four Members have used the word censorship in this thread. I strongly disagree with the constant abuse of the word and the implication that anyone here controls what we are allowed to see. The issue is a bit more complex than some have been able to grasp so I will try to explain it in simple terms.

If you exceed the speed limit and are caught you pay a fine. You broke the rules.

If you violate our TOS your thread will most likely be removed. You broke the rules.

The person who removes your thread isn't violating any of your rights because you don't have the right to break our rules here, it is just that simple.

Once again I will state in plain language that I did not make the rules here, they were established by the Members of this Community so quit your complaining and get over it, our TOS isn't going to change to make a very small group happy.

I actually beg to differ with you, I just posted to a thread in the general area and those replies were not violations of TOS yet they were deleted with out explanation. There is censorship by some heavy handed mods with in these forums. I think I will just go back to reading post and not posting.

[Cecil Arnold]

Four Members have used the word censorship in this thread. I strongly disagree with the constant abuse of the word and the implication that anyone here controls what we are allowed to see. The issue is a bit more complex than some have been able to grasp so I will try to explain it in simple terms.

If you exceed the speed limit and are caught you pay a fine. You broke the rules.

If you violate our TOS your thread will most likely be removed. You broke the rules.

The person who removes your thread isn't violating any of your rights because you don't have the right to break our rules here, it is just that simple.

Once again I will state in plain language that I did not make the rules here, they were established by the Members of this Community so quit your complaining and get over it, our TOS isn't going to change to make a very small group happy.

That's the problem Keith. You can have a good thread established, with good information, different points of view being explored, then one or two people (I really wanted to use another word here) come along, ignore the TOS, and the whole thread gets pulled along with the good information in the thread. I know it's your sandbox, but you really need to give some consideration to this.

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
The original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[Mike Wenzloff]

The issue is a bit more complex than some have been able to grasp so I will try to explain it in simple terms.

Well, speaking only for myself, that's probably because I too stupid to understand, Keith.

Four Members have used the word censorship in this thread. I strongly disagree with the constant abuse of the word and the implication that anyone here controls what we are allowed to see.

It's not abuse of the word, nor the concepts of censorship...

To examine and expurgate.

Censorship: The act or practice of censoring.

Censor: Someone authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.

That is a moderator's job when that job description entails deleting an entire thread over a few poor posts. Well, actually, that is simply part of your job.

The issues as I have read them isn't that people don't think you should have nor excercise authority. I think the issues include doing so in seemingly capricious ways at times. Going further than perhaps one ought. The thread on DC was a good example where some posts could have simply been deleted and the thread stand.

But, it was decided to examine and expurgate, by a moderator acting the part of a Censor, who chose to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.

I'm sorry you have a dim view of this word and concept. But calling it something else doesn't make it something else.

Take care, Mike

Admn Edit
Keith Outten
The original post was innapropriate for SawMill Creek because our Forums are not the proper place for vendors to debate their differences of opinion or technical specifications. The issue would have been better suited for a business meeting in this case.

[Jim Becker]

I just posted to a thread in the general area and those replies were not violations of TOS yet they were deleted with out explanation.

If this is about what I think it is, your deleted posts would not have made any sense after some others were removed for being "way" off topic and on or over the line relative to the TOS. There really isn't the time to explain everything that is done when moderating a large, fast-paced site like this.

Keith has said this. Ken has said this. Aaron has said this. And I'm saying it. Nobody likes to delete anything, but sometime one must make a decision to do so for the good of the community. Yes, that is subjective. But it still needs to happen.

Jim
SMC Moderator