What is happening around here???

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys & Gals,
I just sort of read that DC post by Mr.Witter....no ill feelings towards him directly, just an observation here.

It seems this forum due to its ever increasing popularity is now getting baraged by manufacturers and their representatives and being turned into an advertising platform both positively for their own cause and negatively towards their competitors. I have seen this happen on other groups where some people pose as just happy owners (which is far from the truth) and because of that I no longer am a part of them...currently this is the only forum I still belong to and that may change. In my opinion this is just a continuation of posts here by other companies and you all know how I feel about those . Irregardless of how some of you members feel, everytime a company or one of their reps posts here it is a direct advertisement....it does not matter if it is a answer to a question or not....you will always remember that they were here and answered that question. Human nature being the way it is you keep that in your mind the next time you go to order a product....and I am just about 100% positive that they know that.

In all fairness, if this is the way it is heading then ALL companies should be allowed to post here with no censoring of what they are allowed to say....they should be allowed to "hash it out" amongst themselves and then let us decide whom we want to deal with....sounds kind of interesting and bad at the same time doesn't it It is unfortunate that this forum seems to be heading that way ever so slowly because there are some very hard working people here (moderators, owners, web adm people, etc..) that put a heck of a lot of hard work to keep this place going. I understand some of there reasonings for allowing this to happen but at the same time do beleive it is a fine line that will be crossed and eventually overtake this place completely.

I have tried to add to this community by giving you all my experiences with my European Woodworking machinery. I knew nothing about them before I got involved with them and can understand completely anyone's relunctancy to use and buy these types of "odd looking machinery". All of my information is from my first hand experience with them not made up info or with the intent to sell anything as I have nothing no product to sell.

I sure hope things can go back to the way they use to be...but I am not sure if the line has already begun to blurr

[Erik Rudd]

All of your positive posts may be from first hand experience, but I seem to recall some negative posts based off of your bias for European or American manufactured machines rather than first hand experience. You may have nothing to sell but you certainly have a good deal of expense that you like to feel good about.

[Russ Massery]

Well said Paul! And an answer to your post. Don't know but I don't like it either.

[Cecil Arnold]

Paul, I have mixed feelings about this as we have both seen rant threads in which company owners or reps. have stepped in and made the situation right. I think we have also seen too many thread in which some have shamelessly been cheer leaders for their products. In reading through the DC thread, I found it interesting that many of the posters siding with Mr. Witten had not posted very often, many with less than 50-100 posts. If one were paranoid, one could be lead to believe that they were affiliated--or maybe they just don't have much to say. It would be nice to see some really independent results done by an independent testing lab, based on real world conditions.

[Jon Eckels]

IMO, there's not much of a difference between a company representative pushing a product and a overzealous fan. And In the WW community (like many other communitys) there seem to be plenty of both.

Just an observation.

It's probably best for the barriers to just be dropped, and let them (reps and fans)post whatever they want, and let the public decide. Sure half of it's probably BS, but anyone with their wits should be able to judge for themselves.

[Alan DuBoff]

It seems this forum due to its ever increasing popularity is now getting baraged by manufacturers and their representatives and being turned into an advertising platform both positively for their own cause and negatively towards their competitors. I have seen this happen on other groups where some people pose as just happy owners (which is far from the truth) and because of that I no longer am a part of them...currently this is the only forum I still belong to and that may change. In my opinion this is just a continuation of posts here by other companies and you all know how I feel about those . Irregardless of how some of you members feel, everytime a company or one of their reps posts here it is a direct advertisement....it does not matter if it is a answer to a question or not....you will always remember that they were here and answered that question. Human nature being the way it is you keep that in your mind the next time you go to order a product....and I am just about 100% positive that they know that.

Paul,

So what is wrong with vendors frequenting and offering support and information about their products? Should we limit the online forums to only people that are not professionals in the industry? Or would it be ok if they were professional woodworkers, but not related to any manufacturing of products?

This is no different than Dave Anderson with his products, or Mike Wenzloff, both of whom offer honest and solid advice to folks, despite the products they sell. I mean this in a good way towards them, Dave has always been a gentleman and very reasonable in the decisions and way he approaches these forums. Similarly, Mike Wenzloff will go out of his way to let folks know they can go buy cheaper hand saws and will help them with places to do so. These gentlemen are a good representation of vendors (if vendor is a term applicable) who offer excellent support and advice to the woodworking community. We want more of these types of folks, IMO.

Oh wait, is Dave different than Mike because he doesn't make tools full time?

You see, it's never good to stereotype folks, and this case is no different.

Everyone should be welcome, vendors, users, collectors, or even someone that is remotely intrested in woodworking to see if this hobby is for them.

On another forum, Grizzly has built a following and has many happy customers on that forum. As long as those folks are happy with the products and support they get, more power to that vendor no matter how many problems their tools may or may not have. Support is a factor for all of us to select who we buy from.

I've never been fond of the school that says, "you can't post because your a vendor", or "you only have 2 posts, you need 25 posts to be in the senior member group so you can use our online-fubar-forum, we only allow senior members to do so". This goes on and on...with many examples on many various forums.

In Mr. Witter's case, he came in offering to participate in a discussion. He picked the topic, and offered his view. This should be encouraged when done in the way he did it. Had he come in slandering with serious defamatory words towards Bill Pentz, it seemed he requested some data to back up Bill Pentz's claims. That seems reasonable, actually more reasonable than some made it out to be.

The most defamatory words seem have been tossed towards Mr. Witter himself. I'm not defending Mr. Witters use of words, I am only pointing out that it seemed his intent was to lay it out on the table so a discussion could take place. We often loose some of the context in online discussions, and this type of point seems no different.

[Ken Salisbury]

Guys & Gals,


In all fairness, if this is the way it is heading then ALL companies should be allowed to post here with no censoring of what they are allowed to say....they should be allowed to "hash it out" amongst themselves and then let us decide whom we want to deal with....sounds kind of interesting and bad at the same time doesn't it It is unfortunate that this forum seems to be heading that way ever so slowly because there are some very hard working people here (moderators, owners, web adm people, etc..) that put a heck of a lot of hard work to keep this place going. I understand some of there reasonings for allowing this to happen but at the same time do beleive it is a fine line that will be crossed and eventually overtake this place completely.

In all fairness I think you should let the moderators decide what is advertising and what is product support. We have done that pretty well for 3 ½ years. The presence of manufacturers and their representatives have been a real asset to this forum. Posts which are purely marketing in nature are quickly either deleted or edited accordingly.

To change SMC to what you suggest is ridiculous.

[Ian Barley]

Paul

I can understand your concern but don't really share it. I think that there are manufacturers and reps that post here and get the balance right most of the time. There are others that don't get the balance right most of the time. I think the former do themselves a favour and the latter don't.

It is a fine line. I wouldn't want to walk it and would probably not take the risk if it was my market but I am basically emotionally lazy anyway The DC thread started wrong but has been interesting and I don't think, in my eyes, the OP did anything wrong other than not declare his affiliation and position and use a waaaaay too small font for all us visually challenged folk.

Cecil - if one were paranoid one could be led to believe almost anything. There was one peurile post by a seven year old who had just discovered silly pseudonyms which has been removed. Yes the issue stirred some people who don't post often to join in but my own personal neuroses didn't help me to spot any trend.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Well heck I did not even get halfway through the DC post and it got pulled.

Oh well

I have agree with Ken on this one, I think the mods have been doing one heck of a good job, and they take a lot of crap.

One thing I would like to see, if it is possible, but how about the various Mods give some info on any affiliations they have with companies or company reps that come here. I think this could be useful to the members to know that if I'm having a problem with XYZ company then Mr. ABC mod knows the guys there, so why not ask him if he can put you in touch.

I've found that too often when you send an e-mail to the "Info@xyz.com" company mail, you seldom or at a fairly late date get an answer, but if you have the e-mail of the sales rep for company XYZ, you often get a quick answer.

Alan, I do not think you can compare companies like Grizzly, Delta, or Oneida with a one man operation like Dave Anderson or Mike Wenzloff. If a large multinational corporation decides to sue you, they have lawyers on the payroll just for that purpose (it would be a PR nightmare!).

I to have noticed that most of the Anti Pentz posts came from some VERY new members, or ones that don't post much, what does that mean? Not a whole lot, but I've seen on many other forums what looks like traveling attack squads that jump on to a forum and KILL KILL KILL and then are not heard from again. Did this happen this time on the DC thread? I have no idea, but it does make one pause to consider it.

I'm glad the DC thread got removed, I think it does nothing for the community, and it was a waste of time. If it had started with a more civil tone, I would hope the thread would have remained civil and been a good discussion.

Cheers!

PS anyone want to place bets on how long this thread remains?

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

All of your positive posts may be from first hand experience, but I seem to recall some negative posts based off of your bias for European or American manufactured machines rather than first hand experience. You may have nothing to sell but you certainly have a good deal of expense that you like to feel good about.

Wow Erik, lots of assumptions and speculations made in this post, as well as what could be taken as a personal attack, maybe I could also assume that this was your purpose....?

Just an observation, mind you...........

[Mark Woodward]

Hi all, forgive me for I am one of those "new ones" around here. I too posted some thoughts on the Dc thread and am amazed to see it pulled. Surely it would have been better to Lock the thread off, preventing further posting then to just remove it totally which unfortunetly *appears* to be cencorship of free speech. Indeed, not wishing to be offensive or cynical here - one could easily misconstrude that action as being one of "I dont agree so it can go". (Mods please dont take offence, I am mearly passing comment on how it *could* be seen).

I think that there is merit in allowing discussion of both parties claims, and to be fair, a lot of people will have read Robert critzing Bill - but not giving Bill the chance to respond. By the way, I stand in neither camp!

mark

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Welcome Mark, don't worry about being a "Newbie" we were all there at some time, and while you may be a "Newbie" here, I'm sure you are not in other places, so welcome.

Cheers!

[Mark Woodward]

Thanks Stu, a newbie here yes, but a carpenter of 25 years experiance, and on forums for many, many years

regards mark

[tod evans]

welcome mark! i think we`ll all look forward to your participation.

paul, i agree and disagree at the same time.........company reps who actively participate in ongoing discussions whether about their products or not i applaud.......company reps who only comment about their products and refuse to participate in discussions or answer questions i abhor......
i suppose to me it`s more a matter of how one contributes to the overall community...........02 tod

[Hans Braul]

For the first time I am disappointed in SMC. In response to Dennis Peacock's thread on the Neander site where he expressed his frustrations with sharpening, I suggested he have a look at the Fine Woodworking site, where there is a video showing an expert sharpening a plane iron. I pointed out the site is not free, but I found it helpful. It got pulled. Can ANYBODY explain why that was pulled?????

Hans Braul

From Keith Outten
Hans, the thread was not pulled it is still in the Neander Forum at this link
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43760