Advertising...?

[Keith Outten]

Tod,

The legal action you refered to was not against SawMill Creek it was against an individual. We responded properly and removed the post in question as soon as we were notified which satisfied our legal responsibility.

You would like SMC to have advertisers sign a release to protect you from legal action, this isn't possible nor would SMC provide the service even if we could. This would place us in a position of responsibility that would incur risk on our part, I prefer to have you remain responsible for anything you post in our Forums.

.

[tod evans]

Tod,

The legal action you refered to was not against SawMill Creek it was against an individual. We responded properly and removed the post in question as soon as we were notified which satisfied our legal responsibility.

You would like SMC to have advertisers sign a release to protect you from legal action, this isn't possible nor would SMC provide the service even if we could. This would place us in a position of responsibility that would incur risk on our part, I prefer to have you remain responsible for anything you post in our Forums.

.

keith,
it`s not about protecting ME from legal action in any way shape or form...just look at the signature line i felt compeled to add several months ago.....i`m 100% fully responsible for my opinions on this forum and try very hard to couch them in a sane-n-sensible manner.
what concerns me as i`ve said is that advertisers may use legal or financial leverage to have posts(opinions) edited that don`t suit their fancy. please try to understand that it`s not the fear of legal action that prompts me to comment but the fear of censure. i believe that if the threat of legal action where removed from the equation that several folks could and would speak their minds, within the terms of service of course and their posts would remain in print, in the context they where intended.and i honestly believe this would be good for the forum as a whole.
please exclude me from the "several folks" as we all know i`ll speak my mind anyway

[George Franklis]

Never mind, then.

[Art Mulder]

Speaking as an individual, I am fully in favor of what Keith is thinking about .....

I'm fine with it also, and support Keith and Aaron in this.

[Bart Leetch]

Will the Shop Tours site sharing the same domain with SawMill Creek effect our tax free status?

[Lee DeRaud]

Will the Shop Tours site sharing the same domain with SawMill Creek effect our tax free status?

If you're talking about official IRS non-profit status, AFAIK that only applies to the Freedom Pens Project, which is a separate legal entity anyway. See http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21439.

[Keith Outten]

Lee is right in that SawMIll Creek has never been an official Non-Profit organization per the IRS. Our Freedom Pens Project is an IRS approved Non-Profit organization, all donations to the Freesom Pens Project are tax deductable.

To date we haven't had any taxes to pay since we haven't had any income, all of the money donated is spent on our Forums. Should we get in a situation where we have money left over we can always purchase equipment and pre-pay our bandwidth bills. As you may remember we asked and received extra donations to pay Aaron through the end of this year.

[Mike Cutler]

Keith.

I wish there was a one size fits all answer, but there isn't.

While I would like to see "everything" be advertising free. In reality it may not be practical.
Aaron and yourself have my support. Nothing I have ever seen/read here has led me to believe that either of you, or Jackie would act in a manner without integerity. If you need advertisers to realize your ideas without placing your families at financial risk. Than so be it.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of folks here frequent WoodCentral. Ellis has an awesome site, and is to be applauded for his management of the site. It is a site that also has advertising,and I never seen a post yanked because someone posted a negative response to an advertiser. There have been just as many "manufacturer XXXX sucks on that site as any other.

When Badger Pond closed it left me with an ill feeling. It was the first internet board I had actually joined. To be part of an "experiment" really torqued me. I didn't join it, and contribute to be part of some social experiment. I was leery of attaching any of my time, or energy to another woodworking board, and call myself a member.

Right after that you started Sawmill Creek. It gave folks back a place to "hang out" so to speak. Aaron and yourself were completely upfront about everything. It was new for you guys, you weren't sure how it would work, if it would succed or fail. You also provided the bandwidth at your own expense(s). If you are truly the second largest woodworking site on the net. that's awesome. Well done to all of you. If you choose to capatalize on your success, you'll have earned it.

You guys do what you need to do to make the Shop Tours a reality. You're all top shelf in my book.

[Keith Outten]

While I don't post as often as a lot of you, I am reading the forums every day. I have contributed and will continue to do so in the future.

My take on internet forums is that they are commercial endeavors, or they eventually die off. They can die off due to lack of funding (yes I know the members here are generous), they can die off for lack of interest (not an issue here), and they can die off because the folks running them get burned out putting in all the time, effort, money, stress and worry even though it may be a passion in their lives. It can just become too much (they all have real lives and jobs after all) and if I'm not mistaken, we almost went down this road recently on SMC.

So, I say Keith should do whatever he feels is best for SMC and for us. I have no doubt the new site will be great and something all of us can enjoy. Plus, if a revenue stream can help eliminate the stress and worry about how to get the money to keep the site open, and not being totally dependant on donations, which are rather sporadic, then go for it.

Honestly, I would rather go with Keith's proposal than risk losing SMC altogether at some point down the road. Believe it or not, it could happen.

Would any of us be willing to run the site with all the headaches and worries associated with it? Would any of us be willing to put in all the extra time to keep this going? I sure as heck wouldn't be able to. So if the guys that are doing all this have an idea to make things easier and to offer something cool in a new site, and they promised not to let it interfere with the current enviornment at SMC, seems to me we should support them.

Dan

Dan makes some valid points concerning longevity. A person can only volunteer for so long before the candle burns down to the bottom. Expanding The Creek willl provide the necessary incentive to continue on and on and on. I also hope the Shop Tours might provide some retirement income ten years from now

.

[Steve Clardy]

Keith. Tod isn't concerned about being sued for His opinion.
It's the censorship of statements and posts that DO NOT violate the TOS.

That really irritates Tod, and others.

Steve

[Ken Salisbury]

My thought exactly Marty. Ken, I think you are off base to say that anyone has either said or implied anything negative about Keith in this thread.

We all have opinions and I respect yours.

[Jay Knoll]

Hi everyone

I hope this doesn't get us off track, but maybe stepping back a bit and looking at some basic assumptions will help.

As I see it, there is an assumption that everybody "contributes" to the Creek in two ways.

The first, and most valued, is in personal participation and posting

The second is the financial contributions that SOME of us have made here to keep the enterprise economically viable.

There is a third assumption that I think is implicit, but not explicit in the Creek's management and that is that it would be "unseemly" to ask someone to pay for access to this wonderful space.

And that is where I think the wheels fall off the car, or the creek dries up or whatever metaphor you want to use.

I don't think that it is unseemly to require that someone pay the suggested $6 a year for access to this place. Let them see what is available for 3 months, but after that, require payment for access.

Heck, it is cheaper than a couple of lattes, or several issues of any woodworking magazine and the content is much better! Well......... maybe not when compared to a latte........ LOL.

If we were to take this course, aren't we free from all the concerns about advertising etc?

What is stopping us from turning this into a subscription site? What do we lose? What do we gain?

Jay

[George Summers]

Being a person of few words (as exhibited by my total number of posts even though I visit several times a day) all I can say is:

Keith - Go For It!

George

[Frank Pellow]

Keith thanks for asking this question and for considering our opinions. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you good luck.

If you can set up a money making commercial “shop tours etc” site that’s great and I am sure that I will be a visitor, perhaps a contributor, and maybe even a customer.

But, I think that it has to be quite at arms length from Saw Mill Creek as we know it. I just cannot see any way of removing potential corporate pressure on Saw Mill Creek other than separating the two entities.

Also, there is the little detail mentioned by Marty that .org sites are not supposed to be commercial.

[Bart Leetch]

I'd like to add my shop to the shop tours I need a good retiredment too.