Advertising...?

[John Shuk]

I'm glad that there is a way for you to profit from what you provide for us.
I for one will be clicking for you guys.

[Marty Walsh]

...

Now if you started another complete domain such as SMCshoptours.org, it would be different.

...

Steve,

Small detail...it would have to be SMCshoptours.com since it would be 'for profit'. ".org" is reserved for "non-profits". That distinction might be lost on some, but it's an important distinction none-the-less.

- Marty -

[Steve Clardy]

Steve,

Small detail...it would have to be SMCshoptours.com since it would be 'for profit'. ".org" is reserved for "non-profits". That distinction might be lost on some, but it's an important distinction none-the-less.

- Marty -

Yes. You are right. Lost in other thoughts at that moment

[Marty Walsh]

Marty,

It is good that you asked the question, sometimes it reminds us to consider whether we have looked at any given position fairly and considered every option with the proper care. I need to be "thumped" occasioanlly, it keeps me on my toes and makes me revisit decisions once again.

My answer to your question isn't concrete as I have no numbers at this point to share. My feeling is based on experience gained from running HRO for ten years and what we have learned by hosting SMC. SMC is self supporting now so there isn't much to discuss concerning our Forums financial status or even advertising influence. We have no plans to fine tune SMC, it is already running as smooth as can be.

Keith,

I'm glad you view the forums as being self-supporting and without need of financial discussion. But I do have to politely disagree with the second half of your statement. "Advertising INFLUENCE" is the impetus for me creating this thread!

You've publicly stated, on more than one occasion, that the forums will never be subjected to advertising directly. For that we all thank you.

However, I'm concerned that we'd loose the ability to solicit and receive honest (unsanitized and uncensored) opinions on products, because the manufacturer might happen to have a financial interest in your for-profit business. For that, I won't thank you!

The new venture that Aaron and I are considering doesn't have to be associated with SMC at all. These new services being a for-profit business venture are planned to be supported via advertising. Therefore it isn't a matter of asking our Forum Members to provide financial support for the Shop Tours but rather whether they prefer to be associated via the domain name.

You're certaily correct if it's your goal to turn a profit. You should have clearly stated that earlier on, and I wouldn't have continued to question statistics, or suggest alternative finanacing. Soliciting contributions to line your pockets isn't something I'd expect of you.

A separation might be in the best interest of all parties but I have this nagging feeling that our Forms would see a huge benefit being associated with what Aaron and I have in mind. Obviously a Shop Tours site would go hand in hand with a woodworking forum, the physical connection between the two could be huge in terms of clout and presence on the World Wide Web.

Again, I'm basing my comments on the snippets you've chosen to divulge, and a large dose of speculation, but I'm having a hard time trying to envision the benefits we, the forum members, would see from your for-profit business.

I sure don't have a hard time envisioning the negative reprocussions we'd incur at the wrath of some advertiser on your business!

Can you help me understand the potential "clout" you have in mind?

Perhaps if we were better armed with all the facts, we'd be able to help you make a decision that would help your bottom line, but not at the expense of us members.

SawMill Creek is already the second largest woodworking forum on the global Internet and clearly doesn't need assistance from any other source to continue on as it is now and to grow on its own. We are growing at an amazing rate and there isn't any end in sight so all is well at SMC.

I hope that Aaron will jump into the conversation soon and share his views and perspective.

.

Again Keith, thanks for giving me the opportunity to air my concerns. I've come to truly appreciate the creek as we know it. I'll do whatever I can to help keep it alive and protected from greed driven advertisers...

- Marty -

[Ken Salisbury]

First of all let me say this post is made as a member of SMC and not as a moderator.

I certainly do not wish to start a major controversy by responding to this thread. However, everytime a thread comes up concerning the management/operation of SMC I see comments which suggest there is some alterative motive driving planned changes.

To even suggest that Keith's motives are for financial gains makes me really hot under the collar. Keith is just too nice of a fellow to respond in any negative way and is almost always too diplomatic in his answers/explanations. I am not so inclined when I get my dander up.

I am sitting here at 2:30 am reflecting on how we at SMC got where we are today. Keith's vision for SMC included a "family style" forum for wood workers with NO ADVERTISEMENTS. Keith's dedication to this endeavor should never be called into question. Any comments which suggest he cannot be trusted are so ridiculous. We got here because he could be trusted and after more than 3½ years as a member I know of no instances where he has not lived up to his word.

Keith said:

I have a personal philosophy in that I prefer to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Words are so cheap and promises are easilly broken.

Since we started SMC I have remained true to my word keepng the Creek going through good times and bad. The deed far outweighs the promise and I think most of our Members trust me based on what I have done.

Some of our members should try this philosophy.


General statements of "whats in it for the members" and "I just feel, that some way or another, it would be turned into a profit venture" or "what benefits would we, the forum members, would see" are purely selfish in nature.

Keith has every right in the world to start a "Shop Tours" web site seperate from SMC whether they are linked or not. As long as any advertisement there does not appear on SMC - what difference does it make?

I have every confidence that Keith will do what is best for SMC. It is my personal view that he shouldn't have even asked for members opinions on the subject. But, that shows what type of person he really is and how he values what the membership thinks.



Some folks would complain even if you hanged them with a new rope .

[Marty Walsh]

First of all let me say this post is made as a member of SMC and not as a moderator.

I certainly do not wish to start a major controversy by responding to this thread. However, everytime a thread comes up concerning the management/operation of SMC I see comments which suggest there is some alterative motive driving planned changes.

To even suggest that Keith's motives are for financial gains makes me really hot under the collar. Keith is just too nice of a fellow to respond in any negative way and is almost always too diplomatic in his answers/explanations. I am not so inclined when I get my dander up.

With all due respect Ken, are you reading the same thread as I am?

I'm not SUGGESTING anything. Keith SAYS he's doing this as a FOR-PROFIT VENTURE, which is perfectly fine.

This is, afterall, HIS forum. We as members simply help to foot the bill (hence the non-profit, member supported nature). How he decides to leverage what he's created here, is obviously up to him, and I wish him the best of luck in whatever BUSINESS venture he decides to begin.

I am sitting here at 2:30 am reflecting on how we at SMC got where we are today. Keith's vision for SMC included a "family style" forum for wood workers with NO ADVERTISEMENTS. Keith's dedication to this endeavor should never be called into question. Any comments which suggest he cannot be trusted are so ridiculous. We got here because he could be trusted and after more than 3½ years as a member I know of no instances where he has not lived up to his word.

I have NEVER questioned Keith, nor implied that he couldn't be trusted. I'm simply asking him if he's thoroughly examined the possible impact his business decision might have on the forum. If you take that as mistrust, you have misinterpreted my words. I don't believe Keith has.

Keith said:

I have a personal philosophy in that I prefer to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Words are so cheap and promises are easilly broken.

Since we started SMC I have remained true to my word keepng the Creek going through good times and bad. The deed far outweighs the promise and I think most of our Members trust me based on what I have done.

Some of our members should try this philosophy.


General statements of "whats in it for the members" and "I just feel, that some way or another, it would be turned into a profit venture" or "what benefits would we, the forum members, would see" are purely selfish in nature.

Again Ken, I think you need to re-read this thread so that you understand that Keith IS PLANNING A FOR-PROFIT VENTURE. This was not at all clear when this thread was started, which is why I was looking to help him find alternative funding so he could steer clear of advertisers.

Now that he has explained his plans a little better, I'm all for having him reap some financial benefits from the hard work and effort he has invested in the forum.

Keith has every right in the world to start a "Shop Tours" web site seperate from SMC whether they are linked or not. As long as any advertisement there does not appear on SMC - what difference does it make?

Have you not been reading this thread Ken? I've mentioned several times the potential negative impact that advertisers on a web site connected to SMC through Keiths business can have. Keith has pretty much acknowledged the potential for this negative impact, and agrees that he needs to address it.

I have every confidence that Keith will do what is best for SMC. It is my personal view that he shouldn't have even asked for members opinions on the subject. But, that shows what type of person he really is and how he values what the membership thinks.

It's my personal opinion that, as a contributor of a member supported forum, it is my right to make sure that a business venture doesn't negatively impact the environment that I'm contributing to.

The fact that Keith has been responding the way he has, and acknowledging what I'm saying shows me that my opinion is pretty much on target.

Some folks would complain even if you hanged them with a new rope .

The bottom line is that I'd rather not be hung. I contribute to this forum. I enjoy this forum. I enjoy the friendships this forum has allowed me to form with many of the members.

If Keiths' BUSINESS VENTURE is the new rope, I'll be leaving here before the lynching begins. I just hope that day doesn't come, and that my questions and comments in this thread have caused Keith to pause and consider all the implications of his FOR PROFIT VENTURE.

Oh and Ken, perhaps it's reading and responding to this thread at 2:30 in the morning that has caused you to miss so much of it's content...

- Marty -

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Ken, I want to applaud you defence of Keith, it shows that you do really care, that you are concerned, which is a good thing.

Honestly, I do think that your defence is not needed, I do not think that Keith has been insulted, or his character has been impugned in any way, I know that is just my reading of this thread, but I'll stand by it.

I know that I tried to pick my words carefully, and I trust that Marty did the same, no one is served by posting inflammatory comments, it does not further the discussion, my observation.

I, like Marty, think that there is a reasonable amount of concern that a "For Profit Venture", connected to SMC, could, "COULD" have a negative effect on SMC, in fact, I would say that Keith has acknowledged this with his own words.......

I see no reason why our Forums, as long as they remain a separate entity, would be affected by advertising on another site even though they are linked via a business connection. Aaron and I are both steadfast in keeping our Woodworking Forums advertising free at all cost. We also must be practical, money makes the world go round and free won't pay the bills.

This statement by Keith puts my concerns to rest. Some may not agree, but I think that Keith and company, have done a VERY good job with SMC, which shows with it's constant growth.

I understand why Keith is being somewhat vague about the upcoming STM that is in the works, as it is NOT finished, and is only in the planning stages, and why show your hand in public, where someone else could steal your good idea.

I will remain here in this VERY good atmosphere, supporting SMC. I cannot, honestly see that changing, as I will judge Keith and SMC on their past record, not the possibility of a future problem and or conflict.

If such a conflict were to arise, I'm confident that Keith, would address it directly.

Ken, I hope you get some more sleep, I run on about 5 hours a night, and that sucks, but that is what I need to do right now, to get it done.

Kudos to all that are willing to take part in this discussion in a civil manner.

Cheers!

[Ken Salisbury]

With all due respect Ken, are you reading the same thread as I am?

Again Ken, I think you need to re-read this thread so that you understand that Keith IS PLANNING A FOR-PROFIT VENTURE.

Have you not been reading this thread Ken?

Oh and Ken, perhaps it's reading and responding to this thread at 2:30 in the morning that has caused you to miss so much of it's content...

- Marty -

I read very well no matter what time of day it is, both within the lines and between the lines.

I have gone back and re-read each line to insure my sobriety. I understand completely what Keith is planing and stand by my statements in their entirety

[Marty Walsh]

I read very well no matter what time of day it is, both within the lines and between the lines.

I have gone back and re-read each line to insure my sobriety. I understand completely what Keith is planing and stand by my statements in their entirety

Ken,

Fair enough. Although I certainly don't understand how you could make the following comment after reading through the thread up to your post:

To even suggest that Keith's motives are for financial gains makes me really hot under the collar.

I too stand by my comments.

Here's hoping the creek stays the GREAT resource it is today...
- Marty -

[Glenn Clabo]

Keith...In my book you DO NOT need to defend yourself...your actions from the start up of this forum speak volumes. (It should be noted that Keith started this WITHOUT the support of the owner of the forum that folded tent. The content and support was handed over to another forum...but Keith did it anyway. Within a month there were 800 + of us.)

Marty...It is always hard to discuss these type of things with written words vs spoken words. Sitting in the shop...maybe a refreshment in hand... is much easier... for me anyways. As I see it...your "conversation" about a touchy subject like this is needed and you are VERY clearly stating your opinion and are now understanding of Keith's conceptual design for the future. Thank you for starting this. You are very clearly stating what you feel.

My take... I want Keith and company to do something that reaps the benefits of their labors...financial, physical and mental. The joy of seeing SMC grow and continue is in itself rewarding...but it doesn't pay the bills or IMHO cover the comments some people throw his way.

I also think that tying SMC to anything that involves advertisers is risky...and worthy of discussion. That said...it's Keith and his family who took on the SMC forum and has to ultimately decide for himself what the next step is.

Keith's open discussion about his ideas is an indication of what kind of person he is. Marty's concern about the future of SMC and an attempt to better understand is an indication of what kind of person he is.

I will always support and respect what Keith decides...AND appreciate the adult conversation that people like Marty bring. That's simply why I come here too darn often.

[tod evans]

i`ve been watching and reading (for a change ) instead of spouting off. but i couldn`t take it.......
keith, i understand completely that you own smc lock-stock-n-barrel, i also understood(past-tense) that it was your desire to keep advertisers out. i also understood(again past-tense) that a "shop tour" section would be added to smc. and untill now i had no idea that smc was looking to "have clout" with any manufacturer?
why may i ask have you changed directions? i`m sorry that i didn`t pony-up with several hundred bucks last go-round but if all it takes is more money to keep advertising out of smc (and affiliated branches) then i`ll gladly cough up more money.
what i won`t do is be part-n-parcel of an advertising venue, let alone pay for the privilege.
please give some serious thought as to how you wish to steer your forum, as one who has come to enjoy this place i feel you`re giving me the option of like the advertisers or hit the road.........
yup! i`m worried about the direction you appear to be headed.....02 tod

[Keith Outten]

I am pleased with how everything is running at SMC and I am concerned about the impact of any outside influence, this includes any new service that Aaron and I may create.

We do value the input of our Members and that is why I have responded to the questions asked, it is far better to debate a subject beforehand rather than deal with a mistake after the fact.

We don't need to springboard from SawMill Creek's Forums, if we build something that is really good people will come, this is the same philosophy we use here at SMC.

The only question is...Would the benefit of having a Shop Tours site share the same domain with SawMill Creek outweigh any negative impact? Some have expressed concern based on my ability to keep advertisers from exerting pressure on our Forums, this is a valid point. My track record for keeping the Creek clean speaks for itself and I have already promised to maintain our Forums just as they are right now as long as they are Member supported.

The benefit of SawMill Creek having state of the art Shop Tours capability would be huge for our Forums. If we use a separate domain name the brand affiliation will be lost and both sites will lose a huge amount of clout and support that would benefit our Forum Members. For instance managers of many companies view our Forum content every day, some participate and some have been known to help our Members from time to time. If the new tool you just received is defective and tech support is not responding it is nice to know that there is a place that you can ask for help. Registered Members of SawMill Creek have more influence than any other source I know exists because we use our real names and that makes us real to manufacturers and suppliers.

FreeStuff drawings are the result of the advertising value derived from the massive amount of hits we receive. We have given away tens of thousands of dollars in new equipment and as we grow the value of our FreeStuff Drawings will increase. Personally I would love to see a drawing for a new laser engraver or CNC router in the future and the clout that growth brings to SMC is what is necessary to make these kinds of things happen.

This is a very big decision...choose wisely.

.

[Frank Fusco]

The advertising/no advertising decision is just that, a decision by owner(s) of SMC.
On the side of advertising, commerce is what runs the Internet. It is the only unregulated area of free enterprise in the country (maybe world) and it is working. Advertising benefits everyone, company, consumer and venue.
But, as some have said, the downside could be that advertisers might use clout if they don't like criticism in posts.
My dilemma, is that I belong to about a half dozen discussion forums. Half of those are woodworking/turning related. I contribute support to three forums. Others want funds also. If payment becomes a requirement for membership, here or elsewhere, then the 'clout' shifts to the member. e.g. "Hey, I'm paying for this, you better not censure me....". And that very well could become a valid, court worthy, argument.
I side with accepting advertising. The companies are less sensitive to criticism than bottom line. If the ads increase business, they won't care what we are saying about them. They'll laugh and cuss all the way to the bank.

[Matt Warfield]

This is quite interesting that we're having a debate where both sides have the same goal - to keep advertising out of SMC. Personally, if there's a google ad banner up, that doesn't bother me as there are always ways of blocking that content. But I think there is a bit of misconception here regarding keeping the shop tours and the forums seperated by different business names. That simply isn't enough of a seperation to have the desired effect.

Keith, there's no doubt in my mind that you want to keep the forums free of advertisements and outside influence. It may seem that having two different businesses will seperate the interests but it all comes back to one point, you have controlling interest for both entities. You've made it perfectly clear that you need to protect yourself from lawsuits and such for which I completely agree. It's also very clear to me that if an advertiser is not happy with forum content, you may be facing a bit more than just a decision to let a customer go or not. Large corporations go to great lengths to protect their brand name and you could easily find yourself in a legal battle on two fronts - shop tours and SMC forums. That's something I do not want to see happen and doubt anyone else does either. Is it a gamble for the corporation? You bet!! Think it doesn't happen? Think again!! One prime example I can think of is the holder of nissan.com. Go there and read his story. Being a pessimist is not in my nature but looking out for the welfare of my friends and colleagues certainly is.

My only thought on how to make this work is to make SMC forums a non-profit organization controlled by Aaron. Aaron can then license the SMC's good name to Keith who own's and operates SMC's Shop Tours. Or change Aaron and Keith around. Either way, I cannot see a way to eliminate any potential corporate pressure other than completely seperating the two entities. In the end, it is your decision and the fact that the common user has the opportunity to voice his/her opinion on this topic and be listened to speaks volumes of the community here at SMC. So please, keep yourself and SMC protected as best you can and in that order!

Many Thanks!!

[Keith Outten]

i`ve been watching and reading (for a change ) instead of spouting off. but i couldn`t take it.......
keith, i understand completely that you own smc lock-stock-n-barrel, i also understood(past-tense) that it was your desire to keep advertisers out. i also understood(again past-tense) that a "shop tour" section would be added to smc. and untill now i had no idea that smc was looking to "have clout" with any manufacturer?
why may i ask have you changed directions? i`m sorry that i didn`t pony-up with several hundred bucks last go-round but if all it takes is more money to keep advertising out of smc (and affiliated branches) then i`ll gladly cough up more money.
what i won`t do is be part-n-parcel of an advertising venue, let alone pay for the privilege.
please give some serious thought as to how you wish to steer your forum, as one who has come to enjoy this place i feel you`re giving me the option of like the advertisers or hit the road.........
yup! i`m worried about the direction you appear to be headed.....02 tod

Todd,

Please read my comments again. I can't be any more clear about my promise to keep advertising out of SawMill Creeks Forums, therefore we aren't asking anyone to accept advertising or hit the road.

The Shop Tours site is just too much work and investment to expect Aaron and I to create and host as volunteers. It is a huge project and is more in line with a job that most people woud expect to be paid for their efforts. If it could be done in just a few hours that would be different but that isn't the case.

The issue of SMC having influence with manufacturers is and has always been important. Read my last post again, do you think that the number of Members who have received help with equipment problems is a minor issue? If so press one for sales, press two for tech support, press three for...........INSERT TONE....I'm sorry all of our associates are busy now, please call back later if you wish but you will never be able to dicuss your problem with the President of our company.

We are not changing direction. We are trying to grow in a positive way. Everyone I know loves Shop Tours and we have an idea that will make it simple for any woodworker to create and maintain his shop tour online. What's not to like about a state of the art service that is free for woodworkers to use and view? The problem is that it takes funds to run the kind of site we envision and we can't find any other way to pay the bills and financially reward ourselves for our efforts other than advertising.