Terms of Service Revision

[nic obie]

Maybe I don't get it.

Nic, work is pushing a wheel barrow full of 12 inch concrete blocks
on a 20 degree grade. Pulling 22 foot rafters too a three story frame.
Getting your 16 year old to brush his teeth.
I do not think cutting and pasting qualifies.

Per

Hahahahaha per,

I said 'more' work. the key word was ~ More ~ .

I'm sure you don't do anything unnecessary to get the job done. I know I don't.

Anyway, this whole thing is moot as they will do what ever they want. If anything, this thread is just contributing tension.

[Steve Clardy]

Any progress yet Aaron?

[Damien Falgoust]

Other Forums. Again the problem is the extent of the work involved in making sure that they are the kind of discussion that we, by coming here, have chosen to be involved in. Somebody posts a link today and the other forum is all lovely and friendly as checked by one of our mods. Tomorrow Sammy the spammer goes onto that forum which is not moderated and posts links to a bunch of porn sites. Everybody still happy?? The problem with forums is that their content is more variable and volatile than other types of websites that could be linked to. I believe that an explicit statement that links to other public forums are not allowed is perfectly reasonable and conducive to SMC maintaining the character that we work at creating here. If it makes me elitist to not want to be involved in a childish brawl then I am elitist.

All of these objections are categorically bogus. Let's address each of these arguments, and others like it, one by one:

1. A forum may change in character overnight, turning into a hive of scum and villany.

First of all, where is the objective evidence for this? I see it asserted plenty of times, but no actual concrete examples. Web forums aren't like radio stations that just change formats at the drop of a hat.

Secondly -- and this will be a recurring theme here -- the same exact thing could be said of any ordinary web page. SMC has no control over the content of any external website, whether it is a forum, a magazine, or a personal web page, or something else entirely. It is inconsistent to say it's a problem that a web forum may, post-link, decide to accept, say, porn ads, but completely discount that any web page, post-link, may decide to do the same.

2. Sammy Spammer may go post a bunch of porn links on an unmoderated forum.

Even if this were to happen, it is highly unlikely to be done in an existing thread. Spammers generally start new threads (usually with provocative titles) in order to maximize their exposure to the forum membership.

This argument also implies SMC's rule is overly broad: while there are several "wild west" unmoderated forums on the web, most of them are in fact moderated. Many disallow posting pictures entirely. I'm fairly certain that most other woodworking forums -- which are the most likely candidates for linking here -- are in fact moderated.

Finally, to reiterate my main point, this is true of other types of websites as well. Shall we disallow linking to personal home pages with blogs because the comments section will sometimes be abused by the unscrupulous?

3. Forum links often break, reducing their value as a source of archival value.

Well, welcome to the internet. Broken links are part of the landscape. If that's you're argument, you may as well ban all linking, because other web pages often do simply disappear into the void with no warning. If anything, forum content, due to its public-participation character, is more persistent -- less likely to die due to a forgotten domain name renewal or a magazine's decision to only show current content.

Plus, this argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good: yes, forum content may be unavailable two years hence, but it is available now and is thus useful in discussions taking place in the present day. Sure, it'd be great if it stuck around forever, but why shouldn't it be allowed as a benefit in the here and now?

4. The moderators would need to examine every facet of a forum linked, and they don't have the time.

Give me a break. You don't need to vet every page of every thread on a linked forum. If someone links to a personal web page, do you vet the entirety of that site as well?

If your concern is porn and the like, that can be checked swiftly by clicking the link and skimming the linked thread. Boobs are generally not hidden away on a forum that permits pornography.

Of course, the simpler and more sensible way to manage this is on a user-complaint manner: that is, you don't need to vet a site unless someone actually complains about the content. People who post links to genuinely objectionable sites should be taken out to the woodshed (this alone should be a sufficient deterrent).

The TOC doesn't contain a line to this effect, but it should (Hampton Roads may need better legal counsel): "SMC is not responsible for the content of any third party web site, and user disclaims any and all causes of action against SMC related to the content of any third party web site." The TOC does contain an acknowledgment that users are solely responsible for content they upload, and the definition clearly encompasses links. Further, I think both of those things are common sense. No one expects the mods to preemptively catch every nasty thing that might be seen on the internet; no one expects you to act as a nanny.

5. I surf SMC with little Suzy or Johnny on my lap, and don't want them to see something naughty.

To my fellow posters: for God's sake, exercise some common sense. You can see the url a link leads to by looking at your browser's status bar. If a link leads to a well-known woodworking forum, you're fine. If it leads to www.sexynakedwoodworkingforum.com, you might want to wait for little Suzy or Johnny to leave the room. And if you're not sure, then just make a mental note to come back to the link later when the kiddos are away.

I also note that this distinction doesn't make a lick of sense, because objectionable content can reside on forums and ordinary web pages. Why do you need the mods to protect you from www.sexynakedwoodworkingforum.com, but not www.sexynakedwoodworking.com?

(Please note, none of those links go to anything, although I'm sure a bunch of you wish they did. )

[Damien Falgoust]

Finally, elsewhere in the TOS, you might consider eliminating the "meta discussions" about moderation issues. A reader who has a concern should PM the moderator first and not post in the open forums, as those greatly detract from the environment on SMC, and can embarrass the person who has been moderated. In the PM, the user can ask that the moderation issue be opened up for general discussion, but that should be the decision of the management team. Otherwise, you will get a lot of disruptive discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with the core topics that SMC should be about.

I categorically disagree. As long as such discussions are placed in the proper forum (presumably, the support forum), they are fine.

We benefit from more discussion, not less. Public discussions of moderation practices and policies are a net benefit to the moderators (and thus to the forums), even if they are uncomfortable at times, because they help them to gauge the views of the membership.

And the existence of such discussions ought not to rest on the moderator's whim. Moderators are only human, and as such are unlikely to be able to objectively assess a complaint about their moderation. If you only allow moderators to open discussion of moderation practices and policies, you'll essentially never get such discussions.

[Damien Falgoust]

I suggest clarify by saying something like: "Direct links to other forums or to commercial sites where something is offered for sale are prohibited. Links to articles related to the topic in a particular post is encouraged. If someone is looking for specific information on another fourm or on a commercial site, then please send any links via private message."

Does this mean I could not link to an article at a major woodworking magazine's website? All of them offer subscriptions for purchase at their websites, and many offer books and other media for sale as well. Indeed, the whole reason they offer the odd free article is to generate interest that will convert into a paid subscription.

[Glenn Clabo]

All of these objections are categorically bogus.

As a lawyer you may understand this....

You have the right to remain silent...everything you don't say from now on will not be held against you...

[Damien Falgoust]

Well, gee, I'd hope that pointing out obvious flaws in some not-so-well-thought-out rationales wouldn't be held against me in any case...

[David Rose]

This forum is not a democracy. It is privately owned. Is that a dictatorship? That is fine with me. We who support it here do so understanding that we must follow the rules. Yes, I support it, as I am willing to go along with the rules. If I don't like the rules, I will quit supporting it. I don't care if the "4-letter f-word (Ford)" is omitted and disallowed to be used. I am not a Ford person anyway, so that means nothing. But really guys, you who wish to have no control over what you say or do, please go away. I really don't believe that anyone exists who wants no control. I think the disagreement exists over WHAT is controlled and HOW it is controlled. I enjoy having a place where I do not have to have interaction to determine what is right or wrong. I enjoy having a place where it appears that I agree with most of it, and I can choose whether I want to stay. Isn't this simple? Go or stay.

I guess the point is, this is not a democratic location. I, among others, do not object to that as long as it does not creep into our areas of boundaries. I would much rather support those who support my ideals than those who do not. In other words, you can bounce around OUTSIDE my boundaries all you want. If you get inside them, them I start to have struggles. Much bouncing, and you are cut off.

Ken, I am sorry that you get caught in the middle. But I want to say that I highly approve of your performance. I think you are a "good" man. And I give you many thanks. And yeah, I miss some of the stuff that you cut. But that is OK, I will live with it.

David, who will fight to the death for freedom

[Steve Clardy]

Our Terms of Service will be modified to specifically exclude links to auction and other classified sales web sites. Other than that our rules are not changing.

Aaron will also make an effort to make the TOS more clear and concise.

Long ago I offered to work on our Frequently Asked Questions to include some explanation of our policies. I have been making a few notes concerning the key subjects and will publish a new FAQ in the near future.

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For the record we will not allow advertising within our Forums here at SMC as long as it is Member suppported. There will be advertising in our new ShopTours module we are planning. The SMC Shop Tours will be a major bandwidth consumer and will require serious revenue to pay for server and bandwidth support. This is a business decision that I have made since SawMill Creek and our new ShopTours Module will both function as a division of my sign company (Northwind Associates), in the same manner that SMC has been owned by Hampton Roads Online since its inception.

This will be a seperate web site? Or linked to SMC?

[Keith Outten]

Steve,

THe SMC shop tours will be part of the SawMill Creek domain so it will be linked to our Forums in various ways.

The SMC ShopTours will be physically located on its own server and have its own bandwidth. This will prevent any performance issues from crossing over between either of the servers, basically keeping our Forums from any slowdown due to increased shop tours traffic. There will be some increased value to our Forum via access to the Shop Tours database but this feature is still under developement as are others that we don't want to share just yet. It is not our intention to have just another web based shop tour site, what we are planning is way beyond that with a full-feature list that we think will be extremely versitile and efficient. Our Shop Tours will not be based on commercial software, Aaron is providing all of the programming and integration of web server to database.

The Shop Tours feature will have its own Terms of Service.

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