OK, help me choose a new lathe

[Bill Grumbine]

I have to toatally disagree with your Bill.

Fine by me Brad. You are not the first person to disagree with me on something, and probably won't be the last. Matt asked for opinions, and I gave mine. I still think so, even after reading your post. You made a decision based on certain factors, and I expressed my opinion based on my own experience looking this lathe over, plus that of numerous students who have come through my shop. Perhaps your opinion is more accurate than mine, but I base mine on the quality of work the machine will do compared to the effort involved in getting that quality. I did not start out with the lathes that I have now. I started out with a $99.00 Chinese machine, and worked my way up from there, so I know a little bit about various lathes on the market.

I got rid of that cheap Chinese lathe and bought a Jet 1236. At the time it was the most expensive woodworking machine I had ever purchased. I did not have a chuck or a sharpening jig for quite some time. I only had a few tools and I made do with them. I have lots of tools now, but the funny thing is, I use less tools now than I did then, even less than the ones I first started out with.

We all make decisions based on our circumstances. When I bought my Jet I had even less money than you describe, and no play money at all. We were a young family with a new business and I had to hustle several hundred dollars profit a month just to keep afloat right out of the gate. That is not as easy as it sounds. I do not mind your disagreeing with me, and I hope you do not mind my disagreeing with you. While I am sure you have had a good experience, it is not my experience, and therefore not my opinion.

Bill

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Brad and Bill, nice to see both of you sharing your opinions and thoughts on the subject, and I'd be really surprised if we did not all disagree at some point on things.

I'm moving up from the C-man lathe to the DVR 3000 and I know it will be money well spent in the long run, for me, in my situation. I sold one toy, a bike, to buy another, and along the way, I've pleased by wife as well.

Here in Japan, the selection of lathes is way thin, compared to the US. I know that if for some bizzare reason I were to give up turning (gasp!) I could easily sell the DVR 3000 for more money than I'll pay for it, so it makes good sense to me.

I can get that HF/Grizzly/???? lathe here in Japan as well, it is fairly cheap compared to the DVR, and I know, that if anyone could rig it to work better I could, but in the end, my biggest constraint is not money, but time, I have only about 18 hours a day to get it all done, (on a short day) and I did not want to have to spend countless hours working on the lathe, I wanted to TURN on the lathe.

I'm a big time proponent of making it yourself, but with a few qualifiers, like if it is way cheaper, you can't just "Buy" it, or if you want to, and I think that Brad, in massaging you HF lathe, you hit on at least a few of those points, if not all of them, and I also notice that you have upgraded your lathe, and not left it stock, you obviously have the skills and drive to do so, but lots of guys do not, thus a lathe with limits, like the fairly fast slowest speed, may not be the best choice for those guys.

I very much repsect both of your opinions, and the abilitly to agree to disagree.

BTW, I'd love to see some better pics of your set up Brand, any chance of that?

Cheers!

[Brad Hart]

BTW, I'd love to see some better pics of your set up Brad, any chance of that?

Cheers!

I actually took a bunch more last night but the flash killed them. I am going to be back out today taking more. Of course over the years the biggest upgrades to the lathe are the same ones you have to make with expensive lathes, like adding a OneWay center and some better tools.

The biggest reason I went with an upgrade motor instead of a next step lathe was the lathe I had worked fine and I knew the next lathe I bought would also be able to be upgraded with the same motor. I will probably keep upgrading one step at a time letting each lathe pay for the next, hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will have this motor setting under a vic vl300.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

............hopefully in 3 or 4 years I will have this motor setting under a vic vl300............

I just about bought one of those, they are $5500 here in Japan, but the importer had a demo showroom unit on for $3850, but that was just too far out of my budget, sure would have been nice.

If I ever outgrow the DVR 3K, that lathe will be on my short list.

Cheers!

[Brad Hart]

I just about bought one of those, they are $5500 here in Japan, but the importer had a demo showroom unit on for $3850, but that was just too far out of my budget, sure would have been nice.

If I ever outgrow the DVR 3K, that lathe will be on my short list.

Cheers!

Since I already have the variable speed drive and controller, I have thought about getting the motorless 51" variety for $2100. My motor combo won't have quite the power but it will certainly be a lot cheaper, which is a tradeoff I can willingly make for that price.

[Chris Barton]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

[tod evans]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

very sound advice chris! .02 tod

[Andy Hoyt]

When Doc Barton speaks - we listen.

[Brad Hart]

Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

Of course this all comes back to the budget you have to work with at the begining. It is always easy to say if I bought machine "x" first it I would have saved money, but honestly that is one of the most economicly naieve comments people can make. Sure I can say, "17 years ago if I would have paid cash for a mercedes 500sel instead of $400 for a late model ford pinto as my first car, it would have been less expensive than the combined price of every car I have bought since and it would still be driveable." While the numbers might make it a true statement the economic facts also make it an impossibility. The same thing can be said for most people who get into turning and their first lathe. It is all well and good to say get a $2000 but the fact less than 1 in 10 americans have more than $1000 in savings and if you are about to say put it on your credit card then your entire argument of cheaper goes out the window as every grand financed on credit cards cost an average of 6k to payback. this isn't to say you shouldn't buy a great big bad monster lathe if you can afford it, by all means if you have a few grand in cash in which to start a new hobby then buy a big expensive lathe, but the fact is most of us don't have that kind of money to throw into a new hobby and are forced to look at the economic realities of what we have to work with.

[Frank Fusco]

I am going to post one additional reply to this in hopes that other new lathe purchasers happen to read this. In woodworking there are many times where you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference. Lathe work is not one of those situations. You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe but, that is where it ends. The quality of the lathe largely determines if you stay with the activity because you enjoy it or if you drop turning because the experience is aversive. Also, at least in my experience, it would have been less expensive for me to buy the best lathe available when I started rather than work up through a variety of machines before I settled on my PM3520a and my VS Jet Mini. I think it also delayed my development as a turner. So, that's why I made my original suggestion.

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. That is yet to be addressed. I'll use your own words to illustrate my puzzlement.
<<"you can make do with cheap tools and not notice a big difference.">>
If you don't notice (big) difference (you didn't say if in working or finished product), why bother with the extra three or four thousand dollars?
<<"You can make great pieces with just about any serviceable lathe">>
I repeat the question, if that is the case, why bother spending an extra three or four thousand dollars?
You say that is where it ends. Of course, a "great piece" is when you turn off the machine and start bragging. What begins after that for your extra three or four thousand dollars? I don't understand. And, I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

[Brad Hart]

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. ... I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

The difference betwen a $400 and $4000 lathe is pretty great depending on how you use it. There will be no difference in how well you can turn a pen or bottle stopper between a OneWay 2436 and a PSI turncrafter pro, there might not even be that much difference in how well they turn a 6 or 7" bowl or a box. However when compared with a hf 34706, jet 1236, 14 or 16" griz lathes there is a considderable diffeence when you turn larger pieces, a lot of it comes down to safety, durability, down right pleasure factors, as well as options like built in indexing, reversible motors complete variable speeds, and bigger available sizes. But this all comes back to how do you use it. If you are going to turn great big things a very expensive lathe has advantages that make the price worth it. If all you are going to turn on it is small things where the differences won't be noticed if they exist at all the only big reason to an expensive lathe is bragging rights. Personally I think people whospend $1000 on 10 or 12" OneWays are out of their minds.

It is not that all the people who balk at the idea of inexpensive lathes are elitists, some are, some like Bill Grumbine definately are not. Those that aren't tend to look at the world from a very different financial stand point with very different priorities. A lot of them look back at several years, with plenty of turning experience and say if I had known this I would have done this, but in most cases of people I know who say this I remeber when they started and know for a fact that many of them even had they known never could have afforded to do the things they are now advocating for everyone else.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Frank, if you don't mind, I'll take a stab at answering this question.

I don't know about your premise, that a $400 lathe vs a $4000 stands up, as the $400 lathe is quite a bit better than the HF $179 lathe, that was suggested, but lets press on.

I'll pick two lathes.


The Grizzly G0584, lists for $385.

Specs

• Motor: 2 HP, 110V, single-phase
• Swing over bed: 16"
• Distance between centers: 43"
• Heavy-duty, precision ground cast iron bed and cast iron legs
• 1" x 8 TPI RH headstock spindle
• Spindle tachometer with digital read outMT
• MT#2 spindle & tailstock taper
• Spindle bore: 3/8"
• Outboard turning is easy with standard tool rest extension
• 10 speeds: 600 - 240RPM
• Quick lock/release levers for tailstock and headstock
• 0 deg., 60 deg., 90 deg., 120 deg., and 180 deg. headstock rotation
• Overall dimension: 76 1/2"L x 19"W x 48 3/8" H

Now I think for a first lathe this would not be a bad choice, except for a couple things. 600 rpm for the slowest speed is WAY to fast, IMHO, I have the old C-man lathe, and the slowest speed is about 450 rpm, and on a 9" bowl, this is a little fast for me, I cannot imaging trying to turn a 12" or 16" bowl at this speed
I've also heard a lot of people break the tool rest on this machine, that would really wreak the weekend!

OK on to my $4000 choice


The Vicmarc VL-300 Long bed machine.

Specs

VL300EVCM - Vicmarc VL300 Long Bed Electronic Variable Speed Cabinet Mounted Lathe.

The VL300 Series Electronic Variable Speed Lathe has been designed to suit most professional wood turners. The electronic variable speed drive gives 150% torque on low rpm and the 1.5kw motor is adequate for this size lathe. The two step pulleys provide ratios 1: 1 for small to medium size work and 1: 3 for large work.

The cast iron lathe is mounted on a 3/16" thick steel plate stand which has been designed with a wide footprint for stability and rigidity. The stand also features storage space, wood shaving discharge chute and emergency knee bar stop.

Centre Height 12"
Swing over Bed 24"
Distance between Centres Long 50"
Indexing 24 Holes
Spindle Thread 1 1/4"-8TPI
Headstock Bored No. 2MT
Tailstock Bored No. 2MT
Spindle Bearing Tapered Roller
Electronic Variable Speed with Digital rpm indicator Infinitely Variable 30 -3000 rpm
Thru headstock Spindle 5/8"
Thru Tailstock spindle 3/8"

Motor 1500 watts
Forward & Reverse Switch Yes
Emergency Knee-Bar Stop Yes
Wide Footprint 28"
Hollow Ballast Two sides
Net Weight 660 lbs
Standard Accessories Accessories:
1 x Faceplate 6"
1 x Spur Drive
1 x Live Centre Cup
1 x Knockout Bar
1 x Tool rest 12"
1 x Spanner




Now I've seen the Vicmarc VL-300 up close and personal, and this lathe costs very close to your $4000 mark.

Let's look at this from several points of view.

Resale:

Stuff gets sold/passed on at some time or another, this is for sure, as we all do die.

The resale for the VL-300 will be very high, as it is always going to be in demand by turners, the Grizzly lathe, well you won't get much for it.

Ease of Use:

OK here is a major point, IMHO, if you spend a few hours a week on a lathe, the ease of use point is not going to be much of a big deal, as you can get by with crappy controls for only a few hours a week.
If you are a pro, and turn 8 hours a day, the Grizzly would have you pulling out your hair is a few days. Things have to work smoothly, and with out a second thought, or you waste time, if you are a pro, time wasted means money not earned. BTW, if you only turn a few hours a week, then having a $4000 lathe would be pure luxury!! (ICapaCapacity


vepaCapacity

I've not used the Grizzly lathe, but I very seriously doubt that you could take a 14" bowl blank and smoothly turn it, rough it out etc, I would think there would be a considerable amount of flex in the whole unit. The VL-300 would handle much bigger bowls without even breaking a sweat.

Durability:

Again, if you are turning a few hours a week, the Grizzly would hold up for a fairly long time (until the warranty is up, they are betting) but if you were turning on it full time, you would wear it out.

You would be hard pressed to wear out a VL-300.

My Conclusion:

Basically it boils down to how you are going to use the lathe, if you are a part-timer and do a bit here or there, then I'd say the $4000 lathe would be overkill, but if you are a pro, then the $4000 lathe makes you money, and the $400 lathe costs you money in downtime, loss of productivity etc. plus the frustration factor in dealing with a tool that is not up to your needs.

Speaking of Need, if I need a good tools because I use it to make money on my job, then there is no question, in my mind, that it is money well spent.

Now if I "Want" a $4000 lathe, and I can afford it, and I only use it a few hours a month, well, all bets are off

Does the comparison betweent the two lathes stack up?

I really think if you compared a less than $200 lathe with an $800 lathe, the value of the more expensive machine would come through much better.

Cheers!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

One thing that Brad said about people spending big bucks on their lathes and being out of their minds.

Well, I sell wine for a living, I have $5000 bottles of wine, and I have customers come in and buy several $700 and $800 bottles of wine, like you or I would pick up a nice $12 bottle of Chardonnay

One guy buys a lot of wine, I asked him why? Well he is a big-time corporate lawyer, and he has some high-flying customers to dinner, and he is not going to give them a $12 bottle of Chardonnay is he? The wine for him is a business tool, he needs to spend that kind of money on the type of client he has.

Just some more thoughts, we all see things in different ways!

Cheers!

[Bill Grumbine]

Chris, I'm afraid I irritated another member here by asking for specific statements why a $4000.00 lathe is better than a $400.00 one. That is yet to be addressed. ... And, I believe I am irritating some eltists. Like telling the owner of a $10,000.00 Rolex watch that my $30.00 Casio keeps just as good time as his, is just as shock and water resistant, which it is.

Frank, I was not irritated, but I did take it off line to be a little more succinct in my points. I am still waiting for some answers from you come to think of it. I guess if you have never seen one or used one, it would be hard to understand why a $4000 lathe is better than a $400 lathe. I have done both, using both types for years.

Here are the differences:

1. Weight. The weight engineered into the more expensive machine is just that - engineered into it. While piling sandbags on helps, it is not nearly as effective as a machine that is built of substantially heavier components. My $4000 machines do not chase me around the shop like my $400 machine did even after it was sandbagged with an extra 360 lbs of weight.

2. Power. The difference in power between a 10 amp single phase motor and a 20 amp 3 phase motor has to be seen to be believed. Instead of light cuts and stalling the motor, large quantites of wood can be removed literally in seconds. I can take a 60-80 lb blank of wood and turn it into a rough bowl for drying in less than 10 minutes on my Poolewood or Vega. I don't think you are going to even spin a blank that big on a $400 machine unless you have modified it substantially, and even then you are going to run the risk of breaking things. I know. I've done it. My Jet pivot head machine advertised an outboard turning capacity of 16" x 5". That might be true in theory, but not in practice. It just isn't going to swing a piece of wood that big.

3. Control. A $4000 machine these days sports a a 3 phase VFD power source. While this type of motor is not necessary for the vast majority of spindle turning, these machines are not built primarily for spindles. They are built for bowls, hollow forms, and other artsy pieces that require fine tuning the speed control. They open a whole range of possibilities that just aren't safe to do on a $400 machine unless you modify it as Brad has done with his HF machine.

4. Overall design. Fit and finish are much better. I do not have to fight my machine, and my turning improved by an order of magnitude each time I moved up a step in machine. I can get a fair curve in very little time on my more expensive machine, and it is not just because I am a better turner than I used to be. I turn on enough less expensive lathes on a regular basis to know that. Just last Saturday I spent the day turning on a lathe that shook like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang all day long. I was exhausted from the experience, but when you are standing in front of 30 people who have paid to see you turn, you don't complain about the lathe.

To go back to my own $400 lathe on this, I turned on it for over 3 1/2 years, and made many thousands of dollars using it. I also had a small backup lathe (Chinese built Carbatec). One of the reasons I had it was because my $400 Jet broke on a regular basis. At one point during a parts order, I was discussing everything that had broken on it, and he commented that I had had just about everything that could go wrong with this lathe go wrong. But, it was not a lemon. It was a $400 lathe. In contrast, my Poolewood is coming up on seven years old. In other words, I have been using it for twice as long as my old Jet. I have had exactly two things break on it. One was a plastic locking knob which has since been replaced with an all metal one, and one was the speed control potentiometer, which I replaced with an industrially rated one for $12.58. In addition to myself, literally hundreds of people, virtually all of them inexperienced to some degree, have used this lathe under my supervision, so it is not like it is being babied. It is better built. Period.

5. Speed. This is sort of a culmination of all of the above, but I can turn many times faster for the type of turning I am doing on my expensive lathes. That increase in production and the luxury of using the lathe allow me to be more creative because my attention is not being diverted by the lathe.

6. As an addendum to all the above, I teach, and people come from all over the US and Canada to learn from me. They are not paying airfare, hotel, and rental car rates along with tuition to come from places like TX, WA, FL, etc and turn on an entry level lathe. I have never ever cast aspersions on another person's choice of lathe, although I will tell people why I do or do not like a particular machine, especially before they buy. But people have the freedom to buy what they want, and it does not impact me one whit if they ignore my advice. But, if I am going to have an opinion I am going to express it. As I wrote to Brad, he has an opinion that is different than mine, and I have no problem with that. He is even better informed about the machine he has than I am (I wrote that too) and apparently he is making it work very well for him, but that does not change my opinion. I want to see lots of people having good experience with a machine before I change my opinion about it.

Finally, if you are going to label me an elitist, you are going to have to look long and hard for the evidence of that accusation, and you aren't going to find any. Even people who don't like me, and there are more than a few, would have trouble with that label being affixed to me. I have been called a lot of things, and some of them are even true, but this one is way off the mark. The truth of the matter is, this is not a discussion about elitism in lathes or anything else. If I were an elitist, why would I have written Matt telling him that his Jet mini lathe that he already owned was his best choice? Hmmmmmm??? The truth is, you are angry because I said that I did not like Grizzly lathes, and you lumped me into the anti-Grizzly crowd. I explained that in my PM to you, but I guess you missed the part where I praised their large bandsaws that I have used. I took this off line to keep it private, but you seem to want to air it. I think that is unfortunate, and I am looking forward to your response to my private message. I hope that I have explained myself clearly enough here for you to understand regarding the differences between cheap and expensive machines. The good news is, you don't even have to spend $4000 to get a lot of these features. You will find them on lathes starting at less than $2000. Quite a bargain, eh?

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

But this all comes back to how do you use it. If you are going to turn great big things a very expensive lathe has advantages that make the price worth it. If all you are going to turn on it is small things where the differences won't be noticed if they exist at all the only big reason to an expensive lathe is bragging rights. Personally I think people whospend $1000 on 10 or 12" OneWays are out of their minds.

This is a great point Brad, and reflects my way of thinking completely. I have some acquaintances who live for turning small stuff, and one does not need a big honking lathes to do pens. In fact, I cannot turn a pen as fast on my Poolewood as I could on my Jet.

...but in most cases of people I know who say this I remeber when they started and know for a fact that many of them even had they known never could have afforded to do the things they are now advocating for everyone else.

Again, a great point. "Buy the best and only cry once" sends me into orbit. People, including myself, usually buy what they can afford. That is why it took me seven lathes to get to my Poolewood. I bought one, paid for it, made some money, and traded up. Then I did it all over again. When I started my business, it was tough enough to afford $400, much less $4000! But things change, and when I could afford to move up, I did. I know a couple of people who started out literally at the top of the pile, with lathes like the Oneway 2436 and the Poolewood, and their turnings don't look any better than if they had started with a Jet mini. That will hopefully change for them, but until it does, it is wasted machine. But, in both cases, those people had the money and the desire, or as us elitists say, both the itch and the scratch.

Bill