Japanese Saw Rip-Off

[Maurice Metzger]

Sorry for the really bad pun in the title, I couldn't resist.

I have had a Z-Saw Single Edge Rip Saw (I think technically it's called a Kataha Tatebiki) for a while. I wasn't too happy with it.

Recently I bought a Gyokucho 611 9/22 TPI Double Edge (Ryoba Noko Giri) "Razor Saw" that was made for cutting hardwood. Today I tried using both saws to rip some 4/4 hard maple.

The Gyokucho saw did much better than the Z-Saw. I guess it wasn't even a fair test since the Gyokucho is designed for hardwoods. Smooth cutting with very little effort. I could have read a book and pulled the saw one-handed. I wandered off the line at the end but that was due to operator inattention. With 9 TPI the cut was pretty smooth. I tried to get a photo of the final surface but the light defeated me.

The Z-Saw is on the bottom:

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The Gyokucho ryoba:

DSCN0418.JPG

And the Z-Saw:

DSCN0415.JPG

- Maurice

[James Ayars]

Even with the light problem in your photos, I can see a big difference between the two cuts. The Z-saw looks much rougher. I bought a pull saw a few weeks ago and love it. Mine was a Vaughn "cheapie" but it still does great work for me.
James

[Dan Forman]

Maurice---Looking good. Do you have a link to the saw?

Dan

[Alan DuBoff]

Maurice,

Is it possible to get a closeup of the teeth? My dozuki won't cut hardwood for beans.

I think it is partially what drove me to use western style saws.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I suspect it has less negative rake and perhaps a slight fleam. I recently filed one I made this way and it works well.

Take care, Mike

[Maurice Metzger]

Dan, the link is:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=13088

Note that there is a single-edge rip "Razor Saw" for hardwoods by the same manufacturer in the single edge saw section (Kataha).

No connection to seller other than spending way too much time there - the store is close by.

Alan, here's some closeups of the rip side:

DSCN0422.JPG

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DSCN0432.JPG

For comparison here's the Z-Saw:

DSCN0434.JPG

DSCN0435.JPG

The crosscut side of the Ryoba looks like "standard" mass produced Japanese teeth.

Mike, of course that's the beauty of western saws - you (and I do mean you, not me - yet) can change the way they are filed to suit your needs.

- Maurice

[Mike Wenzloff]

More expensive Japanese saws can be changed as well because they are not as hard as the less expensive ones.

The experiment of the two I have made has gone well. I am using a slightly harder steel than for the western saws, but am still able to file them.

The rake looks to be what I am using, give or take a degree. As well, these are thinned semi-traditionally. Well see.

Take care, Mike

[Maurice Metzger]

I forgot to mention that the TPI changes from front to back along the blade, with the outer teeth being spaced farther apart than the ones closer to the handle. I think this is pretty standard for Japanese saws. There also might be some tapering of the blade from edge to back, but I didn't check.

And I was wrong about a single edge rip saw being available from Japan Woodworker, on rechecking I only see a crosscut version.

- Maurice

[Dan Racette]

Hey mike, do you have pics of the two that you just made?

dan

[Pam Niedermayer]

...And I was wrong about a single edge rip saw being available from Japan Woodworker, on rechecking I only see a crosscut version.

Check out the Hida (http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/rip%20cross.html ) site for examples of kataba tatebiki.

Pam

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hey mike, do you have pics of the two that you just made? dan

Hi Dan,

The specs: they are a ryoba-style rip tooth, roughly 345 mm [13.5"] x a depth of about 120 mm [4 3/4"].

Currently they are unhandled. I am toying with just how non-traditional I wish to make the handles and how they are joined. I should get the one finished around Memorial Day. I originally made one to finish off the kerf for a large stair saw which I lowered the hang considrably on. This meant I didn't have enough room to push a western-style saw through.

A commerically available saw wasn't handy nor of the right thickness and so I made the one used on the stair saw. This in turn led to making a better one. One thing does lead to another.

I have a bunch of things on the ol' plate right now and have taken on a couple other commitments which could push completing the pull saw a little as those too are to be done the same weekend.

But trust me, I'll post when it is ready for primetime.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Maurice,

Thanks for posting the link, and for the pics. The rip teeth look similar to a Mitsukawa rip I tried a while back, and the crosscut side in the pics on the japanwoodworker site look similar (but shorter) than the dozuki I own. Seems the majority of Japanese saws are crosscut.

The long teeth on mine appear to spring when cutting, but the teeth themself are not strong enough to cut hardwoods effectively. In fact, even though the teeth are crosscut, the saw will not crosscut hardwoods in a tolerable fashion. I bet the shorter crosscut teeth might do a bit better. I'm certain the rip teeth will cut hardwoods better, and have cut some pretty hard wood with the Mitsukawa I tried.

Are the teeth shorter than your Dozuki Z?

Mike, Hope you decide to add a nice hardwood handle, unlike the cheap bamboo handles typically fitted to Japanese saws. Some of the bamboo handles are nice, but I presonally prefer a nicer piece of hardwood to a piece of bamboo wrap, any day.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Alan, for a rip dozuki try Hiraide for the Kaneharu, tested by Chris Schwartz at Pop WW, rated the best by him.

Pam

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, for a rip dozuki try Hiraide for the Kaneharu, tested by Chris Schwartz at Pop WW, rated the best by him.

I'm looking at that on Hirade's site. At $220 for the 180mm dozuki, that's gonna take either some soberin' up, or some liquorin' up, I'm not sure which one yet...

[Maurice Metzger]

As an update to this, the crosscut side of this saw is not such a great performer.

Maurice