My Timings for Cutting/Routing Sheet Goods with a Guided Tool System

[Ed Kowaski]

I'm with Tod, guided saws will replace panels saws in industry shortly after pigs can fly.

It's generally faster to take the part to the machine then the tool to the part. Guided saws are not as accurate as panel saws and sliders are not near as accurate as CNC beam saws. Perhaps I'm missinterpreted your opinions but I think it's hopeless folly to suggest an extrusion and some clamps will ever replaced 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars of machine in industry or production work. There is also that little matter of scoring, sure they have a place but I've never seen one in a "production shop" nor do I expect to anytime soon.

As far as the timings go I believe the timings for the slider are on the high side and are not really production times. Now lets start stacking 6 high on a beam saw.

[tod evans]

kevin, something i foresee happening is the borgs as well as the wholesale yards will soon be offering "cut to size" panels while you wait. some pimple faced nintindo commando will push a few buttons and your cabinet parts will be waiting at the cashiers allready dadoed and pilot holed, possibly even edgebanded. will this affect the small to medium production shop? i doubt it. will it effect "joe in his garage"? heck yes! will it affect the big equipment manufacturers? yup, they`ll be outfitting the borgs-n- wholesalers..will it affect the guided system manufacturers? not if they addapt. but when "joe" can have all his panels cut for him for only a few dollars a project with no dust in his garage and no noise for his neighbors to whine about what avenue will he choose?

and my crystal ball shattered years ago but there`s just too much money lying on the table and i don`t think the likes of delta or powermatic have the ability to jump into this field...02 tod

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just a question for you guys.... just curious.... How many of you guys have actually used all of these systems in a real working scenario and which ones?? I have only used a GCSS and a EFSTS so I can only really comment on those two.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I must work different than Frank. In Dennis time, 4:30 is four hours and thirty minutes and I don't think I could retrieve my saw horses and set them up much faster than that. I think I'll probably get a "less expensive" guided system sometime in the future to break down sheets of ply to a size I can push across the table saw.

Doesn't it take more room to lay a 4'X8' sheet of ply across two saw horses than a vertical panel saw? The advantage to the GSS is I can set it up in my drive way when I need it and pack it into a small box when I don't. I think you lose that advantage if you have room for a permanently mounted panel saw don't you?

Of course, both panel saws and GSS will probably be eclipsed by CNC milling machines anyway.

[Allen Grimes]

Affordable is a relative term. I don't think it will be as pricey as you imagine, but "affordable" could be pretty darn expensive relative to currently available options. At any rate, it's not a matter of if but when...

Could you envision a serious comparison of cut times between a guided saw system and a Minimax even five years ago? Well, here we are...

If we are talking about affordable in a relative sense then arent Format Sliders affordable to the people who use them in production shops?

Also, I dont see this as a serious comparison. A serious comparison to me would be to put the GCS system side by side with a Format Slider doing the exact same cuts at a safe reasonable speed and not only seeing which system cuts faster, but which system dies first.

I am relatively new to WWing, I only started in August of 2003, and for the first year I only used hand tools. My experience with power tools and machinery is very limited, but I dont think that people would be spending 10s of thousands of dollars on format sliders, if they could get "compairable" results at a production level with less than 1000.

EDIT: Frank, I want to clear this up, before you come to the conclusion that I am knocking you or your comparison.

I think that your comparison is great, but I on a hobbyist/small shop pro level. I dont think that it is relevant on a production level. And even if it was, you averages about 1.3 minutes to Charlies about 1 minute. For every 3 hours of work from him you would take 4 to do the same, and that is a big difference in my opinion.

[Thomas Walker]

Before everyone starts using the word 'pathetic' thinking it's harmless, I think it's common usage in the US is much more in line with the 2nd difinition from this dictionary. That is, it's generally taken as a 'fighting' word.

-------------------
pa·thet·ic
adj.

1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).
2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity
---------------------

[Don Baer]

I've been using a cicular saw guide for 30 years to break down sheet goods. The one I have is simlar to this one from the blue borg.

<TABLE class=grayborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=782 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class="tir grayleft_align" vAlign=top height=90>Swanson®
100" Cutting Guide


Item #: 119887 Model: CG100</TD></TR><TR><TD class=dot_x_1 vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class="tir grayleft_align" width=208>$18.98
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>It packs away very nice and can be used with any Circ saw or router
It doesn't require any adapters.

The I finish milling on my table saw using either my fence or sled.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Don Bergren]

I saw this as a very informative post about guided circular saw systems. As Frank said initially, there have been recent discussions about the practicality of using a GCSS for cutting sheet goods instead of a table saw equipped with a sliding table. Frank worked with numbers that were previously provided by a member who owns a MiniMax combo machine, which is not what most of us think of as a typical table saw equipped with a sliding table, but it was the gauge that Frank wanted to work with. Frank ran his comparison and posted his results. I liked the post because it showed that the GCSS, with no brand preference expressed, was a viable alternative to a table saw equipped with a sliding table. When one can get results like those in Frank's post when using a GCSS, it makes such a system a very attractive alternative for many users. Frank didn't make it a Festool only thread, or a Festool versus MiniMax thread. It was a fair objective post by someone who approached it in a fair and objective manner. I really like that type of approach.

I have read so many threads about the F and E systems that I couldn't begin to guess the number of posts that I've read. When I finally waded through all of the disagreements (all too often heated) among the enthusiasts of each system, I was actually able to see the benefits of the GCSS without getting caught up in all of the emotions. I guess the real problem we keep encountering in these threads is one of emotions and perceptions. In this thread some saw it as an attack on production machines, others saw it as an attack on Festool, some saw it as dangerous racing, and possibly there were a few MiniMax owners who saw it as a butt kicking for Festool. But when you weed all that emotion out there is some good information here.

The end result is that Frank illustrated one thing quite clearly, and there were others who concurred, and that was that a GCSS can hold its own when it comes to cutting sheet goods in the typical home shop. In his post it didn't matter if you prefer Festool or EZ Smart, the post showed that GCSS's do have a realistic place in a great many workshops. And it showed that a GCSS can accurately do the final processing of sheet goods with the same accuracy as a table saw. Many of us who use one of the systems already knew this, but Frank's post showed the many who may not own a GCSS that a GCSS is both accurate and fast while providing quality cuts.

Thanks for the great post Frank!

[Allen Grimes]

Don,

You said what I meant but better, when you take the post for what it is, it is great and very informative and also very helpful.

I will most likely buy a GCS system, to help speed up production until I can afford a good Format Slider. But I would never think that a GCS system could replace a Format Slider. That is where some people, I think, are getting confused.

I dont know Frank very, very well, but I'd like to think that I know him a little, and I know that it wasnt his intention to make GCSs out to be production equipment, much less a replacement for a FS.

[Kevin Halliburton]

Just a question for you guys.... just curious.... How many of you guys have actually used all of these systems in a real working scenario and which ones?? I have only used a GCSS and a EFSTS so I can only really comment on those two.

There is production, then there is mass production. It sounds like some folks got the impression I'm talking about mass production on the caliber of beam saws and CNC equipment. I'm not... but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

I've used table saws for production, and multi-head CNC routers for mass production.

I'm in architecture now so my production, and mass production, days are over, but for a little over a year now I've been using a well accessorised guide system building our dream home and I'm faster and more accurate with it than I ever imagined I would be. I've built several jigs and fixtures, and have picked up several more from the manufacturer, to make it do more than I ever imagined it could.

I'm not putting forth any challenge or trying to start a comparison war. I haven't even mentioned what guide system I use. I'm simply trying to get people to think about the potential of these systems beyond fancy shooting boards. I've got a $20 straight edge and a pair of C-clamps too. There were reasons I invested far more. These guide system are light years beyond shooting boards. Folks that see nothing more are just flat missing it.

Accurate production level work, say medium sized cabinet shop level, is very doable with a guide system right now. These bad boys are money makers and they are going to get a lot better very soon. Of course they won't replace beam saws, or even high end table saws for that matter - but they will make high end table saw accuracy and production doable for a lot less money. Maybe even doable enough that you will see them replacing SOME of those high dollar saws even in production environments.

Guide systems like the ones discussed in this thread are in their infancy. It's going to be fun watching them grow up.

[Michael Ballent]

OK Kevin, you have me intrigued by what you are using as a GCSS?? There is E, F, and Maefle, and homemade versions.... so what is it? or are you the next great inventor and working out the kinks on your own system If you are inventing your own thing I would love to see it in action when you are ready to show it to the world I agree with you that these are in their infancy and there will be some pretty clever things coming out. WW are tinkerers and we love improve things.

I too found Frank's test very interesting, and appreciate him taking the time to share his results. Considering the price difference between a full blown slider and a GCSS its pretty impressive that he was able to cut with speed and accuracy.

Some mentioned that comparing these is more like apples to Tequila... My take is oranges to Gran Marnier. Both taste like oranges, but one packs a punch

[Paul B. Cresti]

I'm in architecture now so my production,

I'm not putting forth any challenge or trying to start a comparison war. I haven't even mentioned what guide system I use. I'm simply trying to get people to think about the potential of these systems beyond fancy shooting boards. I've got a $20 straight edge and a pair of C-clamps too. There were reasons I invested far more. These guide system are light years beyond shooting boards. Folks that see nothing more are just flat missing it.

Accurate production level work, say medium sized cabinet shop level, is very doable with a guide system right now. These bad boys are money makers and they are going to get a lot better very soon. Of course they won't replace beam saws, or even high end table saws for that matter - but they will make high end table saw accuracy and production doable for a lot less money. Maybe even doable enough that you will see them replacing SOME of those high dollar saws even in production environments.

For example, with a large saw on the guide system I own you can stack and cut several sheets at once right now. (I don't own a large saw so this is one of those seen it done scenarios) I've set up multiple flip stops on my repeater jig and square to cut different sized parts without changing my setup. I've even modified my table saw to use the guide system on it occasionally. I know of at least one manufacturer working on an induction motor saw I'll be able to use on my guides in the near future as well.

Guide systems like the ones discussed in this thread are in their infancy. It's going to be fun watching them grow up.

I have to ask because you brought it up but what is, "in architecture" ? You are either a licensed Architect or you not...Please do not take this as an attack...as it is not.... I just can not take it when people call themselves "designers" or "architectural designers" when there are Licensed Professionals like myself and many others on this forum that have put a lot of sweat behind that title to earned us the priviledge of being an Architect. After all would you go to a "doctor" that dabbles in medicine or a "lawyer" that kind of knows the laws?

I am not talking about manufacturers at all, I have not even mentioned one, at least I do not think I did but there is still a big difference between a GCSS and a format slider period. I will try to add some of the things that can be done with a simple 8ft slider: rip/edge joint long stock - both solid and sheet goods, crosscut solid and sheetsgoods, miter soild stock and sheetgoods, compound miter solid stock and sheetgoods, cutting odd shaped pieces, cutting very thick pieces, quickly squaring pieces, dadoing, cutting large sheetgoods at angles, cutting very small parts..... and these are all without any special jigs. Now add jigs and the options can become even more impressive. Look at my recent posts of something as simple as my ripping jig and now I can just about eliminate a joiner. Add electronics and computer interface and you can automate a format slider to automatically set up or even cut pieces to preset/stored dimensions. They can become so "simple" to operate in the sense that one no longer needs a tape measure and simply becomes an "operator" that just pushes buttons. My point is.....there is a heck of a lot more to these saws then you seem to elude to.

Once again I point out through my experiences (as that is the only thing i can base it on) a GCSS can not perform all of the functions a Format slider can. If industry really thought that GCSS had anything up on a format slider do you really thing companies like SCM, MM, Martin, Altendorf, Felder, Format 4, Casolin, Casadei, Rojek, Panhans, Paloni, Holzer, Robland........ I could go on and on, would still be around?

It is great that the GCSS is here and it provides a great tool for the fraction of the cost of these format sliders but please do not tell the whole industry that they are wrong and a little contractors saw attached to a aluminum board will replace and supercede everything you have to date.

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Michael Ballent]OK Kevin, you have me intrigued by what you are using as a GCSS?? There is E, F, and Maefle, and homemade versions....

Mine is an "E" with just about all the factory accessories and a few homemade steroids. I use a Bosh 7 1/4" saw that I finally built a custom dust collection system for. It seriously sucks. (In a good way) I'm considering adding a bigger saw to the arsenal but I think I'll wait and see what else hits the market this year.

I'm not a "pro" any more but I've been in construction, in one form or another, since I went full time summers on my grandfather's framing crew at the age of 8, so this is a little more than a hobby to me. When the house is done I'll be trying to convert all that free time into a little money so I'm honing my setup for low end cabinet production as I go.

I'm with you, this is a great thread - It has me wondering how my set-up stacks up time wise to Frank's. I've got a couple of sheets worth of cabinets in my near future. I know the accuracy is there. I may have to get the kitchen timer and see how my system stacks up against his for production. I don't have to set up any saw horses so I'm pretty sure I can whoop his butt. <KIDDING>

[Kevin Halliburton]

[quote=Paul B. Cresti]I have to ask because you brought it up but what is, "in architecture" ? You are either a licensed Architect or you not...Please do not take this as an attack...as it is not.... I just can not take it when people call themselves "designers" or "architectural designers" when there are Licensed Professionals like myself and many others on this forum that have put a lot of sweat behind that title to earned us the priviledge of being an Architect. After all would you go to a "doctor" that dabbles in medicine or a "lawyer" that kind of knows the laws?

I'm with you 100% there - No offense taken and I appreciate you asking. In my case "In architecture" means that I'm completing my I.D.P. hours to sit for the exam. At 37, I'm a late bloomer with about 10 years design experience. I have a clear understanding of the sweat blood and tears you've been through and respect it enough to handle the earned titles with care.

I don't think I've told anyone in the industry that they are wrong, except the folks bent on seeing guide systems as nothing more than fancy shooting boards. You make several good points about the slider but I didn't see anything on your list that a well accessorised EZ Smart can't handle. I used the repeaters to rip a dead on 1/6", chip free strip off the side of a 5/8" strip of melamine the other day, just to see if my system was calibrated. I don't know if you can do that on a slider or not, I've never tried. No doubt, the slider can do many of the things you mentioned better... at least for now. Guide systems are capable of far more than most people realise though - at least the one I use.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Kevin,
Best of luck to you on your forth coming exam schedule, it will take some doing but is well worth the accomplishment. Just think when you are done you can look forward to liability insurance, licensing fees, continuing education classes $$, LEEDS certification, arguing with Engineers and then trying to undo what an interior designer does to your work (sorry just a joke), and trying to actually make a living! Joking asside, I love my choosen "two" fields and the best way to describe it is, it is not what I do but whom I am.

If you have never tried using a format slider for any length of time you will not know what you are missing. They can be a very simple cast iron/steel/aluminum beast, like what I have, to something extremely mechanized with all the digital/electronic components one could want. When people talk about a GCSS they always seem to talk about sheet processing not solid stock, well a format slider can easily handle all of those also. If you see the need for a cabinet saw, scms/miter/chop saw, router dado station, edge joining and sheetgood processing in your shop then a format slider can excell at all of those and beyond. I have used both and I just can not see (from my experience) a GCSS doing all of those well enough in a shop environment. These saws are not new as they have been around for quite sometime and all along they have been getting better and better.