GFCI Outlets in series okay

[Jim Becker]

N
I wish my house were down to studs and I could rewire it.

Yea, this house is maddening relative to that. Aside from "stingy" outlet quantities...it was built in 1993...I keep finding whacko circuit routing and assignments. For my current built-in buffet project, I had to kill the circuit that the single low-down wall outlet was on so I could tap and install two new outlets above counter height to replace it. Turns out that circuit provides power to the refrigerator and the small counter next to it where my espresso machine is...plus one GFCI outlet over on the "outside" wall to the left of the sink...AND...my office upstairs, at least on the outside wall where my computer UPS plugs in. Some of the outlets in the family/bird room are on the same circuit as the garage lights. Lots of strange logic was apparently used in this house.

[John Arthore]

I replaced a regular outlet on the porch with a GFCI one that has a built in LED night light. Thinking about it latter I am not sure how it gets it's power. It maybe be downstream of the kitchen GFCI inside and very close by.
When they remodelled they added four GFCI outlets in the kitchen that I think are on just two circuits. I found out heir having two three way switches with dimmer on both caused problems until I repalced one switch with a none dimming one. So Have not been impressed by the later electrical work.
So If i put two GFCI's in series, one supplying the other, is that a problem other than a waste of money? The original builder used the narrowest electrical boxes he could find making this a little more difficult.
Bill D

Using two GFCIs in series is generally fine, but it can lead to inconvenience if one trips, especially with multiple outlets downstream. Many find it more practical to have GFCIs control only the outlet they’re on.

[George Yetka]

Yea, this house is maddening relative to that. Aside from "stingy" outlet quantities...it was built in 1993...I keep finding whacko circuit routing and assignments. For my current built-in buffet project, I had to kill the circuit that the single low-down wall outlet was on so I could tap and install two new outlets above counter height to replace it. Turns out that circuit provides power to the refrigerator and the small counter next to it where my espresso machine is...plus one GFCI outlet over on the "outside" wall to the left of the sink...AND...my office upstairs, at least on the outside wall where my computer UPS plugs in. Some of the outlets in the family/bird room are on the same circuit as the garage lights. Lots of strange logic was apparently used in this house.

They should add something to the code that states a circuit needs to make sense. And not, "All I had was short lengths of wire, so it made sense to use it up and not come back"

[Maurice Mcmurry]

They should add something to the code that states a circuit needs to make sense. And not, "All I had was short lengths of wire, so it made sense to use it up and not come back"

This is a shortcoming of residential construction. There is nothing in the residential building code to regulate quality. The one GFI to protect outside, garage, and bathroom outlets all over the whole house seems like poor quality workmanship. It passes inspection so it gets done that way a lot. The few commercial projects I have worked on were a challenge. They were also a relief in a way because an Architect and an Engineer had collaborated to include quality in the design and made that into plans. All of the circuits made sense, none of the electrical boxes were stuffed full of too many wires. Wiring a house is tricky, I jumped into the first one I did without a plan, I was very quickly swimming in spaghetti. I was also very naive about how much wire it was going to take.

[Jim Becker]

Maurice, while I haven't had much experience with commercial electric situations, as a network engineer, the way houses are wired is "offensive" given how organized network wiring typically is planned and implemented because it has to be...everything is a home run and needs to be traceable. Now all home runs would be impractical in residential electrical situations, but better planning from the initial design forward sure would be a much better situation. Plumbing is finally getting "more there" (but not perfect) with the widespread adoption of PEX which can flow like wiring. So moving electrical into the 21st century is a good idea, too...especially since we humans are significantly more dependent on electricity than we were decades ago.

[George Yetka]

This is a shortcoming of residential construction. There is nothing in the residential building code to regulate quality. The one GFI to protect outside, garage, and bathroom outlets all over the whole house seems like poor quality workmanship. It passes inspection so it gets done that way a lot. The few commercial projects I have worked on were a challenge. They were also a relief in a way because an Architect and an Engineer had collaborated to include quality in the design and made that into plans. All of the circuits made sense, none of the electrical boxes were stuffed full of too many wires. Wiring a house is tricky, I jumped into the first one I did without a plan, I was very quickly swimming in spaghetti. I was also very naive about how much wire it was going to take.

My thought would be that a mandate for no more than 1 room per circuit with the exception of possibly 2 full rooms if it works with the load. And no multiple circuits per room unless different voltage/amperage.

Ive had too many situations were I go to replace receptacles in a bedroom or office and 4 of them are on 1 circuit and the 5th is on an outside lighting circuit.

[mike stenson]

And no multiple circuits per room unless different voltage/amperage.
.

That would be horrible in a shop (mine has 6 now). Also horrible if you need isolation for other reasons. Mandates, in general, suck if all the potential use-cases are not thought out.

[Curt Harms]

Yea, this house is maddening relative to that. Aside from "stingy" outlet quantities...it was built in 1993...I keep finding whacko circuit routing and assignments. For my current built-in buffet project, I had to kill the circuit that the single low-down wall outlet was on so I could tap and install two new outlets above counter height to replace it. Turns out that circuit provides power to the refrigerator and the small counter next to it where my espresso machine is...plus one GFCI outlet over on the "outside" wall to the left of the sink...AND...my office upstairs, at least on the outside wall where my computer UPS plugs in. Some of the outlets in the family/bird room are on the same circuit as the garage lights. Lots of strange logic was apparently used in this house.

I wonder if our builder used the same electrical contractor. Some 'interesting' things on the same circuit, for example master bathroom outlets and outdoor outlets on the same circuit.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If you have a problem, it is an easy thing to switch the branch from being protected to not protected. You do have to keep track of line and load.

Branch not protected = line and load together on "line"
Photo on 10-1-24 at 9.54 AM.jpg

Branch protected = line and load separated.
Photo on 10-1-24 at 9.56 AM.jpg

[George Yetka]

That would be horrible in a shop (mine has 6 now). Also horrible if you need isolation for other reasons. Mandates, in general, suck if all the potential use-cases are not thought out.

But that would be Ok under my new law because you have multiples in 1 room not multiples that are shared amongst other rooms.

[mike stenson]

But that would be Ok under my new law because you have multiples in 1 room not multiples that are shared amongst other rooms.

You said 'multiple circuits per room'.

Again, use cases. Even circuits spanning multiple rooms make sense.

[Jim Becker]

I wonder if our builder used the same electrical contractor. Some 'interesting' things on the same circuit, for example master bathroom outlets and outdoor outlets on the same circuit.

When was your particular development built, Curt? I think it's a combination of both timeframe and perceived needs, rather than a specific contractor. This house was built in 1993 and is "remarkably" similar in electrical deficiency to the house down-county that my previous spouse and I had built in 1988. But I've been in enough newer structures to note that there are still many contractors and electricians that take the path of least resistance when wiring up a home. We didn't have that issue in the major 2200 sq ft addition we put on our previous residence because I was "intimately involved" in the design process and that even included some spare switch space and accessible feeds to them in anticipation of future needs in the big great room...which proved to be valuable when I added overhead lighting up above the barn beam "trusses".

[Edward Weber]

Neither electrical or plumbing seem to be in any uniform logical layout that could be easily traced. Too much, "as the crow fly's" for me. Wire and plumbing just run using the shortest amount of material humanly possible.
When you look in an attic and see wire just going diagonally across the tops of the joists or truss bottoms, you know you're in for some detective work figuring out what controls what.
In my house the breakers are "sort of" labeled. The major items, AC, Heater, etc. are labeled fine, the rest are labeled as "lights and plugs"

[Bill Howatt]

I went through my house and found the circuit for very light and plug anything else. I made a booklet (using a spreadsheet is handy) listing the "outlet", room, sub-panel and breaker number. This is kept by the panel. With it being in a spreadsheet you can sort it according to breaker number or room or anything else that is there. So if I want to know all breakers that feed the living room I can find it easily.
Had an electrician wiring an addition and he said he needed the power off on a certain receptacle. I went downstairs flipped the breaker and came backup. He said he was impressed, most times it takes multiple attempts to get the right one he said.
In plumbing, there can be an advantage to "as the crow flies" layout. every bend adds the equivalent to a certain length of pipe to the impedance of the line however, in many houses this isn't a showstopper.

[Edward Weber]

In plumbing, there can be an advantage to "as the crow flies" layout. every bend adds the equivalent to a certain length of pipe to the impedance of the line however, in many houses this isn't a showstopper.

True but there is a point where it just becomes lazy.
Also, I was talking pex, you can just give a few more inches of slack in the line to go from total hack, to clean install. A long smooth curve adds very little to the run.