Chisel video (grab the popcorn)

[Tony Wilkins]

Popped up on my YouTube. Saw something that gave me great pause early on. I’ll throw this out there and grab the popcorn.

https://youtu.be/QoeyWO5jKW8?si=o9XSc5f_VOWkTn6e

[Edward Weber]

I honestly couldn't watch it all.
You can't review a chisel if you work piece in bouncing and moving all over the place. His methods of cleaning out dovetails and dados is not my cup of tea.
I hope the rest of you enjoy your popcorn, I'm out.

[Cameron Wood]

Kind of cringey but harmless, something to watch if you're desperate for woodworking content, something to make if you're desperate for material for your Youtube channel.

[Tony Wilkins]

Kind of cringey but harmless, something to watch if you're desperate for woodworking content, something to make if you're desperate for material for your Youtube channel.

If that chisel aimed at his hand slipped, the amount of blood loss might not be quite so harmless

[Jim Koepke]

$5 for a pack of 4 Aldi chisels, with wood handles yet? Anyone else notice this video is at least 7 years old?

The other question is how does one compare a full line of chisels with just one sample of each? LN & LV products may be consistent, my money wouldn't be on many of the others being as consistent.

A recent project away from home did give validation to not having to have 'perfect' tools to do a good job. Though having tools one is comfortable using does make as much difference as having tools capable of doing the work.

jtk

[Cameron Wood]

If that chisel aimed at his hand slipped, the amount of blood loss might not be quite so harmless

Yes, that was definitely a cringey part...

[John C Cox]

$5 for a pack of 4 Aldi chisels, with wood handles yet? Anyone else notice this video is at least 7 years old?

The other question is how does one compare a full line of chisels with just one sample of each? LN & LV products may be consistent, my money wouldn't be on many of the others being as consistent.

A recent project away from home did give validation to not having to have 'perfect' tools to do a good job. Though having tools one is comfortable using does make as much difference as having tools capable of doing the work.

jtk

There are definitely plenty of "Budget" offerings that hold up well in actual work.

I sort of scratch my head at his results. When every single edge fails in a reasonable task, the issue is probably sharpening or technique, not the steel. It's not till a person sorts that out that they can actually differentiate between the various offerings.

Other than not securing his work and almost scoping his palm with a razor sharp chisel, nothing stands out technique wise, to me at least, as particularly abusive or destructive.

In his case, I would guess that the across-the-board failure it's a combination of jig sharpening at 27-degree angles on diamond stones with no deburring/wire edge removal or edge durability enhancements such as buffing, hard stropping, or a secondary bevel.

I own a lot of chisels by many companies, and exactly NONE, from vintage to modern would hold up to chopping mortises in anything past balsa or really soft pine with that edge treatment. Ok, maybe you could get away with butternut, pawlonia, monkey pod, and that soft Asian mahogany and a very light mallet, but ANY hard grain lines would blow the edge... Much less Osage orange.

Ironically, they key correlation in chopping edge life among quite a few big chisel shoot outs is bevel angle. It wasn't the steel. Those published trials basically showed that nothing holds up at 25-degrees. A few start holding up at 30. Most hold up at 35, assuming it's properly deburred.

The key take-away is that you have to get past edge failure before you can evaluate edge life.

Well, that and not sticking a chisel into your hand.

[Cameron Wood]

Part of getting good performance from a chisel is getting to know it and then sharpening to it's best angle and edge condition, as well as often multiple sharpenings to get past the initial material,
so taking some new ones and treating them all the same has limited value.

[John C Cox]

That video reminds me of this one by Rob Cosman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWoeCMX6JcE&pp=ygURUm9iIGNvc21hbiBjaGlzZWw %3D

So... He proceeds to doink both edges, and then says, look, they're both the same. Funny how he didn't include his IBC models...

In the end, It's ok to say, "I can't really tell a difference in performance, so I'm going with whatever sharpens easiest or the most comfortable handle, or my own personal preference." If it makes you happy, that's fine.

But... Curiosity nags a bit. Is there REALLY no difference in performance, or are my tests failing to detect fairly important differences? (Remember the eyeglasses commercial with the lady who brings in a raccoon mistaken for her cat?)

When experienced people say there are big differences in performance, but I don't see them. Are they lying? Are they mistaken? Am I mistaken? Those are all possibilities. They could be paid shills... They could be trolls. They could just be wrong. The last choice, however, is that the problem lies with me.

And if the problem lies with me, is it troublesome enough to be worth solving? I hate Aldi/Harbor Freight chisels, but I got a set for Dad, who mostly works balsa and spruce, and he loves them. That's fine.

[Charles Edward]

$5 for a pack of 4 Aldi chisels, with wood handles yet? Anyone else notice this video is at least 7 years old?

The other question is how does one compare a full line of chisels with just one sample of each? LN & LV products may be consistent, my money wouldn't be on many of the others being as consistent.

A recent project away from home did give validation to not having to have 'perfect' tools to do a good job. Though having tools one is comfortable using does make as much difference as having tools capable of doing the work.

jtk

Time to realize it's 2024 (almost 2025), and the ability to produce decent tool steel is hundreds of years old at this point. The amount of steel in a decent set of four chisels cost the maker pennies.

Somebody paying $75+ for one chisel is paying for the pretty wooden handle, and a marketing campaign, and the person paying is presumably a woodworker who could make his or her own handle from shop scrap. You're paying for the labor on the wood handle, the sales effort, and maybe the photography of some old Japanese actor holding a blacksmith's hammer - depending on what you buy. The cost of the steel is an afterthought - even Hitachi white paper and blue paper steel (~$5,000/metric ton direct from Hitachi - peanuts). Weigh a socket chisel without its handle and do the math to get a general ideal.

Even in small quantities, not that bad: https://www.dictum.com/en/steel-cca?p=1

[John C Cox]

Time to realize it's 2024 (almost 2025), and the ability to produce decent tool steel is hundreds of years old at this point. The amount of steel in a decent set of four chisels cost the maker pennies.

Somebody paying $75+ for one chisel is paying for the pretty wooden handle, and a marketing campaign, and the person paying is presumably a woodworker who could make his or her own handle from shop scrap. You're paying for the labor on the wood handle, the sales effort, and maybe the photography of some old Japanese actor holding a blacksmith's hammer - depending on what you buy. The cost of the steel is an afterthought - even Hitachi white paper and blue paper steel (~$5,000/metric ton direct from Hitachi - peanuts). Weigh a socket chisel without its handle and do the math to get a general ideal.

Even in small quantities, not that bad: https://www.dictum.com/en/steel-cca?p=1

That's funny in a "Get off my lawn" sort of way.

While the scientific understanding of alloy chemistry may have made great leaps and bounds since WWII, so has marketing and product placement. Do you really think that the retailers of cheap, discount fare WANT their wares to out perform the boys at the top?

NO!

They want them to be cheap and they don't want returns. If they're performing anywhere close to the "Good ones " that means the labor and materials are too expensive and they're leaving money on the table. That's where Aldi chisels went. The first round was production over-runs from a German factory made during The Recession. After that, they went to China, buying a yearly short over-run, but each year's batch quality got a little worse till they disappeared.

The Amazon alphabet soup brand names are all selling seconds (and thirds and fourths) and over-runs from the big factories "First quality" and Major Brand offerings. If you check the Chinese tool factories websites, you'll see all sorts of quality levels and decorations available, but, as always, what you get depends on what you're willing to pay. And yes, their top tier stuff is REALLY good, but they run into pricing problems. Nobody wants to pay $100/each for China made chisels when you can get Japanese, European, and American made stuff at the same price. Look at Dictum, Dieter Schmidt, Rockler, and Woodcraft. Their China made house brand stuff is good, but it runs ~50% of the price of their "Premium lines."

This isn't a new thing, though. If you look at the brand registry for the old Sheffield makers, they had tiers. For example, back when, Marples was Marples top of the line. I Sorby was a step down beneath Marples, but still "First Quality." From there, they owned 4 or 5 more brands that sold progressively cheaper tools down market. Rob't Sorby, Ward, Butcher, and all the other majors did the same thing.

Even Narex did it, going up-market with their Richter line.

[steven c newman]

Yep, just like old P.T. Barnum always said.....

"up-scale" because there are people out there that actually believe all the "hype" ( BS?) and BUY those high ( over?) priced tools...

And, plenty of "Experts" running around to defend those "up-scale" tools....

All I ever ask of a tool I use, is that they do the job I need done with it...nothing more, nothing less.

[John C Cox]

Says the guy who buys 300 used vintage chisels and planes a week...

[steven c newman]

Not me...barely one a month..of either...

2 planes so far THIS MONTH...a Back saw, and two eggbeater drills....

Maybe YOU can afford 300 a week..I can't....have bills to pay...
However, this WAS in USE today..
Linen Closet, Stiles, Half Laps, paring chisel.jpg
24mm chisel...doing a bit of paring work....since you so enjoy such chisels....

[Charles Edward]

That's funny in a "Get off my lawn" sort of way.

While the scientific understanding of alloy chemistry may have made great leaps and bounds since WWII, so has marketing and product placement. Do you really think that the retailers of cheap, discount fare WANT their wares to out perform the boys at the top?

NO!

They want them to be cheap and they don't want returns. If they're performing anywhere close to the "Good ones " that means the labor and materials are too expensive and they're leaving money on the table. That's where Aldi chisels went. The first round was production over-runs from a German factory made during The Recession. After that, they went to China, buying a yearly short over-run, but each year's batch quality got a little worse till they disappeared.

The Amazon alphabet soup brand names are all selling seconds (and thirds and fourths) and over-runs from the big factories "First quality" and Major Brand offerings. If you check the Chinese tool factories websites, you'll see all sorts of quality levels and decorations available, but, as always, what you get depends on what you're willing to pay. And yes, their top tier stuff is REALLY good, but they run into pricing problems. Nobody wants to pay $100/each for China made chisels when you can get Japanese, European, and American made stuff at the same price. Look at Dictum, Dieter Schmidt, Rockler, and Woodcraft. Their China made house brand stuff is good, but it runs ~50% of the price of their "Premium lines."

This isn't a new thing, though. If you look at the brand registry for the old Sheffield makers, they had tiers. For example, back when, Marples was Marples top of the line. I Sorby was a step down beneath Marples, but still "First Quality." From there, they owned 4 or 5 more brands that sold progressively cheaper tools down market. Rob't Sorby, Ward, Butcher, and all the other majors did the same thing.

Even Narex did it, going up-market with their Richter line.

The chances that they used five or more different grades of steel are beyond remote, especially during the relevant time period. The differences were the grind and fit and finish of the handle. And some lines probably had less profit margin, but were just as good as the 'up market' brand or line. This is done all the time, in all kinds of consumer goods. Bigger target market, slightly less margin = same amount of profit dropping to the bottom line.

Aldi may very well be moving seconds and overruns, but I can assure you that seconds and overruns will always exist for any particular product at any particular time.