Festool

[Jimmy Harris]

There are two types that stirr up contention in these debates. The first are those who feel the need to publicly justify an extravagant purchase. It suggests there's a latent level of regret and to calm that feeling, they seek to convince themselves by convincing others that they made a prudent purchase. You'll see all kinds of justifications like safety, time savings, or the amorphous "peace of mind". Yet, we all know safety is best achieved through practice, not product. And time savings, for us that do not engage in these activities professionally, are often counter productive to our goals as a hobbyist, which is to SPEND our free time doing things we love. And of course, "peace of mind" achieved through consumerism is never long lived. True peace of mind comes from mental discipline.

The second are those who are too concerned with status among strangers. Many people are put off by these premium tools because they remain out of reach, financially, yet their existence excites an inferiority complex. So they argue among strangers against the advantage of these tools to convince themselves that not only are these tools NOT needed, but they represent conspicuous consumption rather than a prudent purchase. They deny the utility and proclaim their real purpose of existence is to take advantage of those with more dollars than sense.

For either side, these arguments attempt to use logic to settle their own, internal, emotional needs. But they're not actually based in logic. Logically, one's needs are individualistic and therefore, one's solutions would follow suit. And there would be no emotional component to any discussion, because none of us actually benefit, nor are hurt, by the purchases someone else makes (baring the exception that someone here actually works for one of these companies or is invested in them financially).

In other words, threads like this are rarely about the tools in question. They tend to gravitate towards arguments of our own self worth, masked in the guise of a tool brand assessment. I imagine they provide more useful information to a sociologist than a woodworker. That's not to say they can't also serve a use to a logical woodworker. But that to do so, the viewer must identify and filter through the noise of human emotion.

And I'm not blaming anyone here. We're all human beings and do human things. It's in our nature to get emotionally involved in things that go against our own self interest. It's just beneficial to sometimes take a step back and identify where the logic and emotion diverge.

[Edward Weber]

I agree with your position but You do need to admit that there are tools that out there with the
"real purpose of existence is to take advantage of those with more dollars than sense."
These are real and should be acknowledged.
Some tools are expensive, some tools are overpriced, they are not always the same thing.

[Rob Sack]

There are two types that stirr up contention in these debates. The first are those who feel the need to publicly justify an extravagant purchase. It suggests there's a latent level of regret and to calm that feeling, they seek to convince themselves by convincing others that they made a prudent purchase. You'll see all kinds of justifications like safety, time savings, or the amorphous "peace of mind". Yet, we all know safety is best achieved through practice, not product. And time savings, for us that do not engage in these activities professionally, are often counter productive to our goals as a hobbyist, which is to SPEND our free time doing things we love. And of course, "peace of mind" achieved through consumerism is never long lived. True peace of mind comes from mental discipline.

The second are those who are too concerned with status among strangers. Many people are put off by these premium tools because they remain out of reach, financially, yet their existence excites an inferiority complex. So they argue among strangers against the advantage of these tools to convince themselves that not only are these tools NOT needed, but they represent conspicuous consumption rather than a prudent purchase. They deny the utility and proclaim their real purpose of existence is to take advantage of those with more dollars than sense.

For either side, these arguments attempt to use logic to settle their own, internal, emotional needs. But they're not actually based in logic. Logically, one's needs are individualistic and therefore, one's solutions would follow suit. And there would be no emotional component to any discussion, because none of us actually benefit, nor are hurt, by the purchases someone else makes (baring the exception that someone here actually works for one of these companies or is invested in them financially).

In other words, threads like this are rarely about the tools in question. They tend to gravitate towards arguments of our own self worth, masked in the guise of a tool brand assessment. I imagine they provide more useful information to a sociologist than a woodworker. That's not to say they can't also serve a use to a logical woodworker. But that to do so, the viewer must identify and filter through the noise of human emotion.

And I'm not blaming anyone here. We're all human beings and do human things. It's in our nature to get emotionally involved in things that go against our own self interest. It's just beneficial to sometimes take a step back and identify where the logic and emotion diverge.

Well, I swore I wouldn't get involved in this no win Festool love/hate extravaganza. But there is enough psycho-babble in the above quote to write a PhD dissertation. You can title it" Justifying Justification". I am no fan of Festool, and yet I own Festool. My overall objective is to get the job done as accurately and efficiently as possible. There are Festool products that, for me, do that and I am willling to pay the price. There are other Festool products I consider simply over-priced and I have been able to accomplish the exact same goal with the same satisfaction at a fraction of the cost. So where does that put me on the above mentioned "inferiority complex scale"?

"In other words, threads like this are rarely about the tools in question. They tend to gravitate towards arguments of our own self worth, masked in the guise of a tool brand assessement." Really? I would love to see the empirical evidence that "justifies" these assertions.

I am no armchair sociologist or psychologist. I am just a professional woodworker who prefers to use the best tools I can afford to achieve the best possible results. Sometimes that includes Festool and sometimes it does not. It's not about any inferiority complex, it's not about any assessment of self worth, and it's not about "conspicuous consumption rather than a prudent purchase". It's about getting the job done as professionally, efficiently, and devoid of as much aggravation as possible. Oh, and it's not about whether or not I was breast-fed as an infant.

[Edward Weber]

My overall objective is to get the job done as accurately and efficiently as possible. There are Festool products that, for me, do that and I am willling to pay the price. There are other Festool products I consider simply over-priced and I have been able to accomplish the exact same goal with the same satisfaction at a fraction of the cost

+1
This should be the last word on the subject but it won't be.

[andy bessette]

There are two types that stirr up contention in these debates. The first are those who feel the need to publicly justify an extravagant purchase. It suggests there's a latent level of regret and to calm that feeling, they seek to convince themselves by convincing others that they made a prudent purchase. You'll see all kinds of justifications like safety, time savings, or the amorphous "peace of mind". Yet, we all know safety is best achieved through practice, not product. And time savings, for us that do not engage in these activities professionally, are often counter productive to our goals as a hobbyist, which is to SPEND our free time doing things we love. And of course, "peace of mind" achieved through consumerism is never long lived. True peace of mind comes from mental discipline.

The second are those who are too concerned with status among strangers. Many people are put off by these premium tools because they remain out of reach, financially, yet their existence excites an inferiority complex. So they argue among strangers against the advantage of these tools to convince themselves that not only are these tools NOT needed, but they represent conspicuous consumption rather than a prudent purchase. They deny the utility and proclaim their real purpose of existence is to take advantage of those with more dollars than sense.

For either side, these arguments attempt to use logic to settle their own, internal, emotional needs. But they're not actually based in logic. Logically, one's needs are individualistic and therefore, one's solutions would follow suit. And there would be no emotional component to any discussion, because none of us actually benefit, nor are hurt, by the purchases someone else makes (baring the exception that someone here actually works for one of these companies or is invested in them financially).

In other words, threads like this are rarely about the tools in question. They tend to gravitate towards arguments of our own self worth, masked in the guise of a tool brand assessment. I imagine they provide more useful information to a sociologist than a woodworker. That's not to say they can't also serve a use to a logical woodworker. But that to do so, the viewer must identify and filter through the noise of human emotion.

And I'm not blaming anyone here. We're all human beings and do human things. It's in our nature to get emotionally involved in things that go against our own self interest. It's just beneficial to sometimes take a step back and identify where the logic and emotion diverge.

...Hogwash...

[Jim Becker]

While it's true "any tracksaw" might have worked, the Festool is at the top of the heap where piece of mind is concerned.
A shop made saw might be accurate enough, but, there is always some concern about the quality of the cut that makes for some uncomfortable moments.

I know this because cutting the premade Formica counter tops that have that integrated back splash require making a guide out of 2x4s and using a circular saw.
After measuring and laying out the cut - for or five times, just to be sure,,,I'm still always wishing my track saw would be somehow able to do the job.

I think that has shifted a little, Rich, as there are some quality offerings from others at this point. Mafele, Makita and Milwaukee, for example. But back when I bought my tracksaw, Festool was "the" game in town.

[Derek Cohen]

Getting it done fast and efficiently may be the goal of a professional, but the purchase of premium tools for others covers a range of possible needs.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rich Engelhardt]

I think that has shifted a little, Rich, as there are some quality offerings from others at this point. Mafele, Makita and Milwaukee, for example. But back when I bought my tracksaw, Festool was "the" game in town.

Same here with me Jim!
Mafell, Festool and EZ Smart were the only options. The Festool was the only one I could "kick the tires on", meaning see it in person before spending such a lot of money on, so, that what I bought.
I bought it right after my shop made guide failed me. My circular saw drifted away from the cut as I maneuvered around the sheet of plywood and when I tried to bring it back straight, the blade got bound up and the saw sort of 'jumped' up out of the cut.
A real thrill.
Thrilling and woodworking really shouldn't fit together quite like that in a story...

The preceding thrilling story involved my job site table saw, a full sheet of 3/4" ply and the little "my blade got bound up in the middle of the cut and it's making my job site saw fall over while it's running" dance.

Another thrilling moment that you can live without having.

I did have the peace of mind using a top quality tool - like the Festool track saw & I still do have that peace of mind using my Makita.
If/when I'm in a situation where I have to rely on something else, that peace of mind isn't there.

[Jonathan Jung]

Since this picture was taken I've acquired some more. I'm a full-time woodworker / carpenter, so my Festool stuff helps pay the bills along with every other machine that's costlier than Home Depot product. It helps enough it's all worth every penny in my books.

2023-01-12_09-04-01.jpg

[Frederick Skelly]

The second are those who are too concerned with status among strangers. Many people are put off by these premium tools because they remain out of reach, financially, yet their existence excites an inferiority complex. So they argue among strangers against the advantage of these tools to convince themselves that not only are these tools NOT needed, but they represent conspicuous consumption rather than a prudent purchase. They deny the utility and proclaim their real purpose of existence is to take advantage of those with more dollars than sense.

I think there’s an elephant in the room that nobody’s directly mentioned. It’s sort of opposite to what was said above: I think that some of the vitriol in discussion of high end tools happens when/if people come across as just showing off or flaunting their wealth. That can be off-putting, regardless of whether it’s driven by envy, insecurity or whatever.

Let’s be honest. There are some people who buy expensive things just to make a statement. I’ve seen people do this with luxury cars, Tesla trucks, $15K euro table saws and even outboard motors (as crazy as that sounds). They don’t drive that magnificent BMW any differently than I drive my car, nor do they appreciate the finely-crafted interior. They drive it “because it’s a Bimmer.” Ok. It’s their money and their business. But I’d just as soon not hear/read them flex their egos. It’s tiresome. I deal with that by ignoring those threads or “blocking” posters who flex frequently. But others read those same posts and react instead.

How people spend their money is none of my business. I just wanted to raise another viewpoint. This thread was helpful to me. Because it’s clear that there are many Festool products that are desirable for their well-designed functionality, and that most people here buy them for that reason.

Thanks for hearing me out.
Respectfully,
Fred

[andy bessette]

...There are some people who buy expensive things just to make a statement...

There are many more who buy cheap crap because they're cheapskates.

[Edward Weber]

There are many more who buy cheap crap because they're cheapskates.

There are also some who can't/won't justify the expense for limited use, opting for the less expensive option.

Different strokes, as they say.

[Michael Schuch]

Next look at Mafell.

I LOVE my Mafell track saw! But I think I would have been just as well served by a Makita track saw.

When evaluating tools for purchase how much I plan on using the tool is a good part of my decision making process. My track saw is incredibly valuable... when I need it. I found I don't need/use it as nearly as often as I thought I would and a cheaper one would have been much more appropriate.

I don't own any Festools. If I ever buy one it will probably be a Domino. But I haven't had a need to do many floating tenons so I doubt I will buy one any time soon. IF I were a professional woodworker I might see them as an investment with a return in time saved or improved productivity. As an amateur woodworker I can make due with much cheaper but still quality tools. I.e. my shopvac with a drywall dust bag in it does the job of dust collection just fine for me (for hand power tools).

[Zachary Hoyt]

There are many more who buy cheap crap because they're cheapskates.

That's me in a nutshell, though I tend a little more to buy old crap because I am a cheapskate.

[andy bessette]

...I tend a little more to buy old crap because I am a cheapskate.

That's even worse!

Just kidding. My entire shop has been outfitted with mainly used (older) equipment--but not crap. Though many of the machines required some level of tweaking or refurbishing.

Crap defines machines and equipment which, even when brand new, were substandard.

Photos from when I first moved into new shop (2-1/2 years ago) to present.