Festool

[Jim Becker]

Edward, some of the behavior you mention comes from the opposite side...foiks being disparaging to those of us who enjoy our Festool products. And as normal humans, we will respond, hopefully in a positive way about why we made the choice, but sometimes being normal humans means things come off as overly defensive. The bottom line is that nobody should have to "defend" their choices and I agree with your last statement that it really doesn't matter what one personally uses as long as the tool does what is asked of it.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, it is not just Festool - it is anything considered premium, that is, a cut above. In the handtool world, it might be Lie Nielsen or Veritas. "It cost how much!". In Australia we have a term for those individuals who excel in their field and come in for jealous criticism ... they are referred to as "Tall Poppies". Tall poppies stand out and became a target to be cut. Envy is a human failing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

Edward, some of the behavior you mention comes from the opposite side...foiks being disparaging to those of us who enjoy our Festool products. And as normal humans, we will respond, hopefully in a positive way about why we made the choice, but sometimes being normal humans means things come off as overly defensive. The bottom line is that nobody should have to "defend" their choices and I agree with your last statement that it really doesn't matter what one personally uses as long as the tool does what is asked of it.

I think the animosity mostly comes from, Non owners asking;
"why would you pay that much for X, when you don't need to, to get the job done"
This automatically puts some on the defensive, by putting their purchase into question.
If I ask, "why would you pay $700 for an MFT?" Many would jump down my throat and automatically start to defend the product and tell me how great it is.

This is all a personal choice of course but those who bought the Festool products seem to take great offense when defending their purchases. Why bother, it's your choice.
You just don't see this fervor in defending Bosch or DeWalt or Milwaukee, as examples.

While I might think some of their products are ridiculously expensive, which I do, I don't have to buy them. Those who do buy them, don't need to defend their purchase.

There are lots of things to consider when buying tools, what others think is not one of them.

[Patrick Kane]

I dig most of the festool lineup. The stuff i didnt love, i sold and moved on. Im not exclusive to festool though. I have Skil saws(their 16" sawsquatch and the pwrcore rear handled 7.25"), bosch routers(colt and the regular 2.25hp), dewalt miter saw, table saw, and drill/driver, makita 6" and 12" planers, and finally a mafell track saw and chain mortiser. It is without question that the more expensive premium brands put out a better product. You cant compare my bosch plunge router to my OF2200 and not objectively say the festool is the better product. Every adjustment is easy and precise, and it has a 1,000 tiny little design details that i appreciate while using the tool. Now, the enormous grain of salt with this comparison is, ok, but is the festool worth 5x the price? I think so, but theres a reason i own the bosch and it is so the festool never leaves the comforts of my climate controlled shop. Personally, i had an older kapex(7ish years ago), and didnt come away with a favorable opinion of it. Same complaints that everyone else registered against that machine. I bought it used and sold it used, so i didnt miss out on anything but time. The homerun festools for me are the domino 700, OF2200, and TS75. I sold the ts75 and picked up the mafell, but the added cut depth of the ts75 over the competitors to the ts55 was incredibly beneficial to me for many years. I made a lot of counters and such that were in the 2.5-3" thickness. I couldnt have done that work prior to owning a sliding table saw without the ts75. I own a rotex 150 and an etc 150 and they are both head and shoulders above the dewalt/bosch lines. I briefly demoed a mirka and that seemed like it was as nice if not nicer than festools sanders.

For me, these X versus Y discussions center around price. In my experience, the more expensive stuff is more expensive for a reason and it is almost always(kapex aside) noticeable upon use. If the tool is something you will use frequently then i definitely support splurging on 'the good stuff'. If it is something you will only need once in a blue moon, then i can see not spending the money. As i stated above, there are many reasons i own dewalt, makita, bosch, etc. The mafell 12" planer is something ridiculous like $6-8,000. I need to 10x my day job's income before that tool makes sense over the Makita i bought for $1,000 off amazon warehouse. Similarly, i purchased an 8 year old mafell chain mortiser for a grand. I would rather have that used tool over a new in box makita for the same price. And that brings me to my final point that about 60-70% of my 'premium' portable tools were purchased used. If you find gently used gear and it is the same price or slightly more expensive than new mid-grade tools, then i would encourage the used route. Like everyone with their 20+ year old tools, i have no doubts that my 5-10 year old stuff has a decade(s) left in it.

[stephen thomas]

Derek - you missed completing an obvious continuation of the analogy - tall poppies/opium/addictive responses.....

No interest or dogs in current discussion, but always a sucker for wordplay



smt

[Mike Henderson]

Jim, it is not just Festool - it is anything considered premium, that is, a cut above. In the handtool world, it might be Lie Nielsen or Veritas. "It cost how much!". In Australia we have a term for those individuals who excel in their field and come in for jealous criticism ... they are referred to as "Tall Poppies". Tall poppies stand out and became a target to be cut. Envy is a human failing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The Japanese saying is "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Mike

[Jim Becker]

I think the animosity mostly comes from, Non owners asking;
"why would you pay that much for X, when you don't need to, to get the job done"
This automatically puts some on the defensive, by putting their purchase into question.
If I ask, "why would you pay $700 for an MFT?" Many would jump down my throat and automatically start to defend the product and tell me how great it is.

This is all a personal choice of course but those who bought the Festool products seem to take great offense when defending their purchases. Why bother, it's your choice.
You just don't see this fervor in defending Bosch or DeWalt or Milwaukee, as examples.

While I might think some of their products are ridiculously expensive, which I do, I don't have to buy them. Those who do buy them, don't need to defend their purchase.

There are lots of things to consider when buying tools, what others think is not one of them.

No argument...I agree with you. At the same time, it really bites when folks do what you mention and sometimes, our being human just plain comes out.

[Patrick Kane]

I think the animosity mostly comes from, Non owners asking;
"why would you pay that much for X, when you don't need to, to get the job done"
This automatically puts some on the defensive, by putting their purchase into question.
If I ask, "why would you pay $700 for an MFT?" Many would jump down my throat and automatically start to defend the product and tell me how great it is.

There are lots of things to consider when buying tools, what others think is not one of them.

The MFT is expensive for a workbench, and not a particularly robust workbench. I owned an MFT and I sold it along with the kapex. However, think about 15+ years ago when that thing came out. The perfectly gridded sacrificial top and dog accessories was a paradigm shift in contemporary power tool work benches. There are thousands of DIY iterations that copied the concept, and it spawned a cottage industry of making accessories from PARF and others. Part of the price is definitely the R&D you/we pay for.

Sincere question, have you used an MFT before? I found it to be a little flimsy and wobbly. Not like it’s going to break, but definitely not a workbench for chiseling or hand planing. But, I can see its utility if you are a mobile trim carpenter. It’s the exact height you need it to be to serve as outfeed support for the rest of their tools. And in that example, those trades aren’t exactly chopping mortises on site. It’s a convenient work holding surface for sanding, dominoing, routing and sawing. A rail guide with track dogs gives you dead perfect square and angled cuts. I just don’t know that I would spend the money to put a few of them in my woodworking shop. I would copy the concept and apply it to a Felder cart or more robust stationary work bench.

[Derek Cohen]

Many years ago, on the FWW forum, Knots, we used to have rousing debates about tools, their use, and the esoterica of hand tools. One fellow, Mel, was a total pain in the watsit because he would question the purchase of premium hand planes yet recommended all purchase Lie Nielsen, as he had done, because they commanded such a good resale value. His tool purchase decisions were based on economics. He was obnoxious and came in for a lot of stick, but he did say something that has always stuck in my head: "I would rather take a visitor to my home to look at what I have built than my workshop".

This comment captures a dividing issue for those on forums on woodworking. It is as though one may divide all into two categories - those that love to build and those that like to look like they build. This is, of course, rather simplistic, even though there are many who do fit these categories (see the Festool forum, where members love to list all their tools as a footnote with each post). And then there is the resentment of those who value craftsmanship and accomplishments and essentially are saying that one first needs to earn their stripes - put in the hard yards - before purchasing high quality tools. The resentment is for those beginners starting out with Festool, and these never (or not yet) building anything more complex than a chopping board or a simple dominoed table without any aesthetic redeaming features. We all needed to start somewhere.

I have been building something all my life, and my handskills were developed eons ago. I don't "need" premium tools, but I love using them as much as I love what I create with them. Do I need to justify their purchase each time one is mentioned? Stephen (on this thread) is not just a master woodworker, but also a master toolmaker. I would KILL to use one of his "Loopy" smoothers. It is not only advanced in design but so beautiful. How then does one react to someone on a forum who states that "a Stanley can do all it can do"? Or "why waste money on a Festool when a Black & Decker is good enough".

I think that to answer these statements on a forum at face value can turn out to be a minefield; it may not be about the better tool for a job, but about personalities and their world views.

So speaks a shrink. Sorry about that

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

The MFT is expensive for a workbench, and not a particularly robust workbench. I owned an MFT and I sold it along with the kapex. However, think about 15+ years ago when that thing came out. The perfectly gridded sacrificial top and dog accessories was a paradigm shift in contemporary power tool work benches. There are thousands of DIY iterations that copied the concept, and it spawned a cottage industry of making accessories from PARF and others. Part of the price is definitely the R&D you/we pay for.

Sincere question, have you used an MFT before? I found it to be a little flimsy and wobbly. Not like it’s going to break, but definitely not a workbench for chiseling or hand planing. But, I can see its utility if you are a mobile trim carpenter. It’s the exact height you need it to be to serve as outfeed support for the rest of their tools. And in that example, those trades aren’t exactly chopping mortises on site. It’s a convenient work holding surface for sanding, dominoing, routing and sawing. A rail guide with track dogs gives you dead perfect square and angled cuts. I just don’t know that I would spend the money to put a few of them in my woodworking shop. I would copy the concept and apply it to a Felder cart or more robust stationary work bench.

Patrick, a MFT is not just for on-site use, but for those in a workshop who may not have space for a table saw or those who do not work with hand planes (where a rigid bench is necessary). But then there are MFTs, such as the basic one from Festool, and then there are the Super MFTs that are created for and by hobbiests who see the production of one as a centerpiece in a workshop.

Why would I need a MFT as I have a slider? I built a mobile MFT about two years ago and it has been invaluable as a second bench, work-holding for routing and sanding, an outfeed for the slider or jointer, and storage for powertools. I am shortly going to add a second router table to the MFT (as it will be more convenient than the one built into my K3 slider).



It does not replace this ...





Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

The MFT is expensive for a workbench, and not a particularly robust workbench. I owned an MFT and I sold it along with the kapex. However, think about 15+ years ago when that thing came out. The perfectly gridded sacrificial top and dog accessories was a paradigm shift in contemporary power tool work benches. There are thousands of DIY iterations that copied the concept, and it spawned a cottage industry of making accessories from PARF and others. Part of the price is definitely the R&D you/we pay for.

Sincere question, have you used an MFT before? I found it to be a little flimsy and wobbly. Not like it’s going to break, but definitely not a workbench for chiseling or hand planing. But, I can see its utility if you are a mobile trim carpenter. It’s the exact height you need it to be to serve as outfeed support for the rest of their tools. And in that example, those trades aren’t exactly chopping mortises on site. It’s a convenient work holding surface for sanding, dominoing, routing and sawing. A rail guide with track dogs gives you dead perfect square and angled cuts. I just don’t know that I would spend the money to put a few of them in my woodworking shop. I would copy the concept and apply it to a Felder cart or more robust stationary work bench.

You are correct that the MFT isn't a great solution as a "workbench" for things like hand planing and chiseling...it will work in a pinch, but not for "heavy" work. But for what it's designed for, it does a pretty good job. I will say that even though I have the older version and have fitted it with leg extensions to bring it to the 900mm height that the current version has, I don't find it particularly "wobbly" although it does move. But as you also talk about, I've incorporated "the grid" into my heftier work surfaces, including my heavy main bench (adjustable height), my auxiliary bench (adjustable height) and my guitar-specific bench because I find that very useful. I use the MFT for for it's portability for certain tasks, generally for home improvement. It will be getting its next job soon when I do the flooring for our foyer since I can get cleaner cuts with it than with the miter saw and I keep it in the garage so it doesn't take up space, even folded, in the shop.

I will add that Derek's setup is awesome...the best of the MFT with the best of "wood".

[Edward Weber]

The MFT is expensive for a workbench, and not a particularly robust workbench. I owned an MFT and I sold it along with the kapex. However, think about 15+ years ago when that thing came out. The perfectly gridded sacrificial top and dog accessories was a paradigm shift in contemporary power tool work benches. There are thousands of DIY iterations that copied the concept, and it spawned a cottage industry of making accessories from PARF and others. Part of the price is definitely the R&D you/we pay for.

Sincere question, have you used an MFT before? I found it to be a little flimsy and wobbly. Not like it’s going to break, but definitely not a workbench for chiseling or hand planing. But, I can see its utility if you are a mobile trim carpenter. It’s the exact height you need it to be to serve as outfeed support for the rest of their tools. And in that example, those trades aren’t exactly chopping mortises on site. It’s a convenient work holding surface for sanding, dominoing, routing and sawing. A rail guide with track dogs gives you dead perfect square and angled cuts. I just don’t know that I would spend the money to put a few of them in my woodworking shop. I would copy the concept and apply it to a Felder cart or more robust stationary work bench.

To me, it's a good idea but ultimately is a glorified card table.
Derek did the most logical thing. Take the good part of the idea and make it your own.

ALSO, I only used the MFT as an example, I'm sure there are other products that fall short of someones expectations, just like with any other brand.

I'll add that; My shop is fixed, I have no real need for mobile tool solutions, which is what most Festool products are.

[andy bessette]

My Festool tracksaw, with track and Systainer, was purchased many years ago, used, on craigslist, for $350. Definitely worth the price. Since then I have added more tracks (some I cut down for special projects), up to 120", also well worth the investment.

[Jim Becker]

My Festool tracksaw, with track and Systainer, was purchased many years ago, used, on craigslist, for $350. Definitely worth the price. Since then I have added more tracks (some I cut down for special projects), up to 120", also well worth the investment.

Aside from the obvious uses, my tracksaw has been a "problem solver" a number of times over the years on partially assembled projects and in one case for a completed project. Just today, as a matter of fact, I used it to correct a stupid 4mm mistake on not one, but two ends at the top of some casework where I accidentally made some top stretchers too long. Removed the screws, marked the line, made the cut, sliced out any remaining excess material and then refastened things together. I did not catch when when checking for square because a perfect trapezoid also tests for "square". LOL To be fair, while my tracksaw is an older Festool, any decent tracksaw can add this kind of utility for "fixing mental errors".

IMG_7744.jpg

[Rich Engelhardt]

While it's true "any tracksaw" might have worked, the Festool is at the top of the heap where piece of mind is concerned.
A shop made saw might be accurate enough, but, there is always some concern about the quality of the cut that makes for some uncomfortable moments.

I know this because cutting the premade Formica counter tops that have that integrated back splash require making a guide out of 2x4s and using a circular saw.
After measuring and laying out the cut - for or five times, just to be sure,,,I'm still always wishing my track saw would be somehow able to do the job.