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Originally Posted by stephen thomas
That's great if you are into production and they are all the same.
I'd estimate the tooling for this window at around $350.
9 different moulding profiles/inside & out; including copes.
"Maybe" $50 in knife steel and abrasives consumables.
1 day/8 -10 hrs max to make the tooling.
Stephen, that is gorgeous, sir. Very impressed indeed.
Best, Patrick
[OP]
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Also for what it’s worth, I want to do this (build windows and doors) partially because it’s hard. Who wants an easy hobby? That would be boring. Difficult things are fun.
[OP]
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Was there a photo in the quoted post? I don’t see one..
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Contributor
To clarify, you don't have to grind your own profiles. There are plenty of vendors who will do that for you, typically $150-200 for moderate size profiles in corrugated back steel. https://www.customouldingknives.com/ and https://ctsaw.com/ are good sources. A corrugated cutterhead and a pair of Schmidt or Whitehill coping discs would be a good investment for custom profiling, tenoning and coping of doors and windows. https://cggschmidt.com/products.php?cat=172 https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutt.../scribe-heads/
I'd avoid the Hammer; it isn't a very heavy duty shaper and if you are serious about building doors, you will find it beneficial to be able to safely spin a couple of 220mm rebate heads to cut tenons. A sliding table isn't mandatory; you can always use a Panhans bolt on slider on a fixed shaper.
https://rangate.com/products/rangate...-table-panhans
Joe Calhoun uses something like that on his Martin shaper.
Rangate is located in Vancouver. They have sometimes run the Alpine workshops there...
Mike
I'd avoid the Hammer; it isn't a very heavy duty shaper and if you are serious about building doors, you will find it beneficial to be able to safely spin a couple of 220mm rebate heads to cut tenons. A sliding table isn't mandatory; you can always use a Panhans bolt on slider on a fixed shaper.
https://rangate.com/products/rangate...-table-panhans
Joe Calhoun uses something like that on his Martin shaper.
Rangate is located in Vancouver. They have sometimes run the Alpine workshops there...
Mike
Contributor
I wasn’t necessarily advocating for that particular machine, just something that might fit your needs without taking up too much space and power.
If I were in your shoes I would buy used three phase and go to the trouble of getting electrical squared away as I doubt you’ll regret it in the long run. I would also want a machine with a good mechanical pinned fence with Aigner integral fence plates (addition of the centrex would be a nice bonus for test and set up cuts).
A thought from left field: have you considered revamping your shop and purchasing a nice combination machine?
Contributor
To clarify, you don't have to grind your own profiles. There are plenty of vendors who will do that for you, typically $150-200 for moderate size profiles
9 x $200 = $1,800
Tool bodies to run same (there would be different cutter approaches to some of the work) = $2,000+
Your personal input to control the process so that returned cutters accurately match originals, especially if you can't cut sections of all the profiles to send with the order = (conservatively) 20 hours.
This is great, and silly to do otherwise......if you are going to make a dozen or more.
I am admittedly old, and started when if you went into a shop, it was just the normal course of things that some old guy back in the toolroom whipped up whatever you needed, to run on any machine in the shop, except that by then production moulding cutters (for flat/straight trim) were being ordered in some cases. I also know a number of other now "old" guys like me who followed the same track - order cutters, don't get back the tool that will actually cut the profile you needed crisply, modified it to do so, and realized "hey, it's no big deal to do this". No waiting. No negotiating. Copes you make in your shop fit exactly, etc. What do i want to make right now at 1:15 AM - Hmmm - what tool body and geometry will do this task best? How many pieces will this project run - that informs some of the factors. Lets whip up a cutter.
Not going to beat on this though. It's how everyone in an actual professional shop did it until just into the 1980's but it began dying a couple decades earlier as the guys who could, who were often born in the late 19th c, died out.
Arguably, most of the moulded work of any kind in place in buildings in the USA before 1950 & many since was made with hand made cutters. Certainly any "fancy" work. But it is easy to recognize that it is not for everyone, and that people who know they never want to do it themselves will go all safety-nazi about why others shouldn't.
Contributor
Chisels on a wheel sounds like a must...
CoaW is all about modern cartridge style tooling - you should be aware of it. And it goes somewhat into the engineering. (not spoon feeding though)
The better starter book is KGaWM by Charles G Monett.
You won't (I hope!) use bolt on knife steel - it costs too much besides having some safety limits.
But everything else is about accessible tooling from the early days of the 20th C through maybe the 1980's.
Which i realize is still ancient history to you. Like ultra-modern practice from the 19-teens & 20's would be for me.
smt
Contributor
It's all a balance of time and money.. I have ground some profiles, including cope cuts on router blanks, but decided to let the pros do the toolmaking and get on with using the tools. It is a very useful skill, I just wanted Kory to know that there are options. I have had very good results from the two linked sources, including perfectly matched copes and profiles.
I appreciate your perspective and work. Interestingly, all the books you recommended are on my shelf. George Ellis' tome should be required reading for anyone interested in historical millwork practice.
Contributor
Am I the only one who sees a major limitation with have only 60 amps single phase to run the entire shop and recommending anything industrial 3 phase?
What amps do your dust collector and any other simultaneous auxiliary circuits (lights, hvac?, etc) pull?
I would say that you need to be looking at a ~5 Hp or less machine to be able to run it in your shop with dust collection and anything else baseline that is on when you're in the shop. You might be able to get away with a smaller 3 phase machine (many start around 6.6 hp), which would be borderline, imo.
Seems pointless to recommend industrial 3 phase machinery that is 7.5 hp + if he only has 60 amps single phase for the entire shop...even if that's what you probably should look for in this case to do what you're talking about and be flexible and versatile.
Still waters run deep.
Contributor
Yeah, he probably needs at least 150amps at the shop, preferably 200amps.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Contributor
Also for what it’s worth, I want to do this (build windows and doors) partially because it’s hard. Who wants an easy hobby? That would be boring. Difficult things are fun
Like i said earlier - you are screwed.
And you keep harping back to requirements & interests that strongly indicate a 5 head tenoner.
You can't imagine the freedom it gives for custom work to be able to adjust any relatively simple cutter independently.
If you stick with it, you will also become a local expert because everyone else is scared of the learning/tooling curve.
The weeds are full of experts who saw one briefly from across someone else's crowded shop who will tell you a litany of reasons (in their expert opinion) why you should not get involved.
If you ever do, be sure it is an all ball-bearing machine; and be sure it has at least one cope head. Both copes, top and bottom is better. Some tenoners were shipped with no cope spindles, or sometimes one only. Without the cope spindles, much of the utility of a tenoner is lost, and that would tend to mitigate back to not having one in the shop. The ability to offset tenons is highly valuable and reduces cutter costs compared to shaper tooling; but not enough to really get the benefit of what a 4 or 5 head machine offers.
You say you have watched "content" on mitigating tear-out and other machining concepts.
Do you understand that for practical door making on a small scale, at least 2 shapers (or shaper and tenoner) set up simultaneously are strongly indicated?
Because tenoning, especially on a shaper tends to tear out the trailing edge, it is common practice to:
1.) mould your long stock that will be mortised
2.) mortise all work with mortises
3.) tenon the rails and intermediary stiles. Using the moulded stock to verify and set the cope profile, tenon thickness, and position vertically of the cope and tenon.
4.) mould the tenoned parts to clean up the tear out.
You can of course mould all the stock including for tenoned parts at once. Then cope a stick longways (be sure to re-rip it parallel), as a spoilboard, and use it to back up the tenon cuts when making them on pre-moulded parts..
That does work well in most cases.
Last edited by stephen thomas; 08-27-2024 at 9:57 AM.
Contributor
Im assuming thats scarasm, but He could run a single 3ph shaper and a 120v dc with led lights on a 60a service. My 6.6kw casolin is only 23fla (3ph) call it 41fla on single so another 19 amps available for lighting, dc and powerfeed if he picks up a 9hp shaper.
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