Help me choose a shaper from 3 options.

[brent stanley]

what type of windows and doors and what what construction? Brent Hull is a window and door expert and construction would not be euro. Hes worth the time has a ton of good you tubes, old school guy who has restored and also makes new windows and doors.

Euro windows better im sure what is the cost from the tooling and the machine you need to swing it. Id bet tooling for some of the euro stuff will be in the thousands.

Some tooling stacks well into 5 digits Warren. The efficiency they can bring to the job is mind boggling though.

[Mike King]

what type of windows and doors and what what construction? Brent Hull is a window and door expert and construction would not be euro. Hes worth the time has a ton of good you tubes, old school guy who has restored and also makes new windows and doors.

Euro windows better im sure what is the cost from the tooling and the machine you need to swing it. Id bet tooling for some of the euro stuff will be in the thousands.

A window shaper set runs somewhere over $10k. Joe teaches not only Euro door and window construction, but casement windows as well. Check out the link above.

One caution about taking Joe's class: you will be lusting after Martin and Hoffmann shapers after...

[Kory Watson]

Kory, I used to have smaller shapers to build windows and doors, and found them severely lacking. I somewhat recently moved on to a couple of larger shapers (Martin T20), and the difference is difficult to describe without experiencing. I will tell you that you have zeroed in on a very expensive niche of architectural woodworking! Cost of cutters and tooling climbs quite quickly! There are others here with far more experience than I have, but I would advocate that you don’t rush into a machine too quickly. Keep an eye on the used market and read up on this avenue of work to help determine needs. Best of luck!

Cost isn't too big of an issue to be honest, my constraint is mostly space. Definitely going to spend time waiting on the used market and see what comes up though. I am not one to waste money. Hence the long thread about how to spend it haha

what type of windows and doors and what what construction? Brent Hull is a window and door expert and construction would not be euro. Hes worth the time has a ton of good you tubes, old school guy who has restored and also makes new windows and doors.

Euro windows better im sure what is the cost from the tooling and the machine you need to swing it. Id bet tooling for some of the euro stuff will be in the thousands.

Brent Hull is iconic, I'm addicted to his YouTube channel and have subscribed to his podcast in the past. His style of window ("100 year window") is close to what I'd like to build , though I personally prefer the insulated glass inserts at which he is vehemently opposed

Frankly, for windows and doors, you should be looking at a more robust shaper than any that you identified. Something like a SCM T120 or above.

I highly recommend that you first think about attending a window and doormaking workshop. Joe Calhoun's workshops are highly informative, he's a specialist in making Euro door and windows, and he not only can teach you how to safely use a shaper, he can also advise you on the minimum shaper configuration you need to make doors and windows. Window shaper cutters are big and complex. Fortunately, you live in Seattle, and Rangate has window and door cutters that they rent through their Cutter Share program. Rangate is also a sponsor of Joe's workshops:

https://alpineworkshops.com/

Mike

I've read about these classes once before. Very tempting. Will definitely be taking them, but only once my newborns are a few years older, unless there is something similar near the Seattle area. I am spending my paternity leave downtime with a baby on my lap looking at shapers and reading sawmill creek...

Rangate i will be looking into as well. Wasn't aware of them before.

After looking at all of the options, I'm thinking a used SCMI T1X0 or a new Hammer F3 (edit: or Felder F7) are probably the best options for the space I have. Finding a SCMI T1X0 with a sliding table seems to be a challenge. I'll see what comes up, or maybe I'll just buy the Hammer.

In the meantime, any good reading folks can recommend on shaper use/safety and door/window making? I've got a few weeks of leave left and have time to fill between caring for both of my newborns

[Aaron Inami]

Using your shop picture, I think you can shift stuff around (but will need to figure out storage on a bunch of small items):

1. Move lathe/table out.
2. Move storage cabinet (solvents) to where lathe used to be.
3. Move bandsaw into corner next to drill press
4. Move tool chest to where cabinet/bandsaw used to be.
5. Put lathe on top of tool chest?
6. Move old shaper out (and sell it)
7. Move jointer to where toolchest used to be (next to door)
8. Put extra-long shaper (SCM T120, etx.) where jointer used to be (against windows).

By the way, the Hammer F3 comes with a 4HP single-phase motor and will likely be fine on your 20A circuit.

[John Pendery]

Cost isn't too big of an issue to be honest, my constraint is mostly space. Definitely going to spend time waiting on the used market and see what comes up though. I am not one to waste money. Hence the long thread about how to spend it haha

Nice man! Cool to be in a position to buy fun tools!

I just checked woodweb and first machine on the list is a lightly used Felder F7with sliding table. I think they are fairly compact machines, but don’t know tons about them. I think Bradshaw Joinery on YouTube has a similar shaper and does nice work with it. If you can’t find a shaper with a built in sliding table Rangate sells the bolt on Panhans table. I use it on my shapers and it’s a nice table. I think I would prefer it to the sliding tables built into the top, but would rather have the big side mount tenoning table.

The Rangate cutters are really nice and the whitehill Combi heads provide a lot of bang for the buck. Keep us posted with what you decide, and congrats on the newborns!

[Phillip Mitchell]

If you're looking for used SCMI with sliding table, then it will be a T130. I have seen some newer SCM models in the last ~5 yrs that have sliding tables, but I'm less familiar with the newer models once they changed the nomenclature and got heavily electronics based.

They will all be 3 phase and at least 6.6 hp, though...up to around 9 hp, possible more for certain T130 models.

Felder and Minimax may be friendlier to your electrical requirements than the more industrial models that will almost always be 3 phase and higher amps / HP.

[Kory Watson]

I just checked woodweb and first machine on the list is a lightly used Felder F7with sliding table.!

Looks like that's a 1998 model for $6500 + my time to drive to CA and back. Is that worth it I wonder when a new model is $10k shipped? Especially since there's no way I could drive down and would need to hire someone to bring it to me.

[Phillip Mitchell]

You might consider this or something similar if looking new.

Limited by 4" spindle height and table opening diameter but 4 hp single phase with sliding table and crosscut fence. Looks like it retails new around $6k. I would imagine Hammer also has a comparable machine in this class (F3 ?)

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwo...x-tw-45c.67651

[stephen thomas]

Could you send a picture of the mounting described here?

Still searching for pix of the shaper on wheels.
But here is a shot of a bandsaw, and a Lancaster drawer-box clamp (1400 lbs book spec).
The box clamp is what i usually do - just bolt a section of 4 x 6 x 1/2" angle on to a substantial vertical surface with the casters attached to that.
Turning the 4" leg up gives an extra 1/2" of swivel space on the caster - sometimes necessary depending on the casters.
The bandsaw was more complex since it did not have good attach points that would clear the door.
Also have a late model Osrud pin router (1450 lbs) similar set up, a Ghermandi Super-Olimpia 13" abrasive jointer, and a SCMI Top 35 all angle gang drill on similar system with cut or solid sections of heavy angle for the caster supports.
JM Lancaster box clamp.jpg

[Warren Lake]

the windows in parents home lasted 50 years. Moms father made them out of pine. The old style single pane glass outsides removable then back on in the fall. The arm thing that you move over and three holes for ventilation. Air space between panes was huge. 5 six inches not sure never looked close enough.

Finally replaced them even if still working needing some maintenance the putty stuff dried out and cracking. when she got the new thermal panes i heard her say a few times she felt her old windows worked better. They should not have but one thing there was a big air space outside not close to the inside same as recording studios where the studio wall is on one floor and not touching the control room and its wall is not touching the other sound in that case not cold but still stuff with less transmission cause not touching the other side. Must be some value in the air space even if very old technology.

[stephen thomas]

I am still fairly new to woodworking, so bear with me here on vagueness. I want to build interior and exterior doors, and would like to build casement & sash windows.

Can you explain why?

That is not a gratuitous poke.
If you plan to do it for income, who are your customers, and what do they expect when going to a custom shop?
For instance, these days the weather seal systems may or may not be a big element of the package depending where you live and, again, the customers' own trade-offs.

Or do you just want to make systems for yourself?

So far I've only built basic interior

doors and trim and I've been using cutter sets like this tiny set to do that.

Don't get locked into "systems" subject to unless your plan is to be a volume producer - everyone gets the same profiles and aproximate door system based on the sets you have in inventory, or that they are willing to subsidize.
I have probably never built a window or door that could be made with an off-the-shelf set of cutters.

I would like to level up any game with raised panels, deeper tenoning,

Then why is a tenoner not part of your machinery package?

insert cutter heads, and a template cutterhead, and would like to use professional cutters (which usually have a 1 1/4 bore). I would also like to level up the quality of finish (eg. less tearout) I get from cuts on the shaper.

Do you already have a good grasp of the matrix of factors to improving the quality of finish and minimizing tear-out?

Somewhere you asked about literature:

Some of the older books will be informative for maker practice but not really address machining - they assumed you came to the table with that in the old days.
Some will help you understand why certain things are useful for tooling geometry.

Everyone who does repro millwork should be familiar with _Modern Practical Joinery_ by George Ellis. Get at least the 3rd edition for the updates.

For machining, you may choose never to make your own cutters, most people don't have the interest or depth to do it safely.
However, the knowledge is useful. It tells why cutting defects occur and how to minimize them through tooling geometry and set up.
From the early 20th C through current times, when anyone running a moulder made most of the cutting tools for it.
_Knife Grinding and Woodworking Manual_ By Charles G Monnett, JR

_Contract Joinery_ by Ken Austin, 1986 revision is an interesting book laid out as illustrations of possible exam questions a candidate might be expected to know/answer/illustrate themselves, for getting the certification in GB (to do millwork, make doors, windows, etc). Other Euro countries have similar standards, though not all are really relevant these days, the methods of thinking about constructing with wood, designing the joinery, and setting out the work are. (We/USA have AIA millwork standards for 3 levels of quality, but they have been somewhat degraded)

_Chisels on a Wheel_ by Jim Effner, 1992 is all about modern cartridge systems, obviously some already obsolete as those fads and manufacturers change with the times.
However, it includes the information that a tooling specifier (purchaser) might want to be informed with when approaching woodworking machining concepts and problems.

Not at all essential to modern practice, but if you want to get a perspective on how large scale windows and doors of great complexity were designed in the days before machinery, Roubo is a fun set of examples to have on the shelf.

Good luck with your shaper.

[stephen thomas]

A window shaper set runs somewhere over $10k.

That's great if you are into production and they are all the same.

I'd estimate the tooling for this window at around $350.
9 different moulding profiles/inside & out; including copes.
"Maybe" $50 in knife steel and abrasives consumables.
1 day/8 -10 hrs max to make the tooling.

[Kory Watson]

Can you explain why?

That is not a gratuitous poke.
If you plan to do it for income, who are your customers, and what do they expect when going to a custom shop?
For instance, these days the weather seal systems may or may not be a big element of the package depending where you live and, again, the customers' own trade-offs.

Or do you just want to make systems for yourself?

* I am eager to learn. I am not looking to make income. Maybe someday when I retire from my career, but that won't be anytime soon.

* I want to make doors and windows for my own home and replace the low end vinyl that is installed already. I love the appearance of wood windows/doors and want the satisfaction of doing this myself. Saving money is not a goal here btw, just for the joy of doing it. It's also just what I do in my hobby time.

* I am on the board of my local church. It is a beautiful, historic 1920s structure we are trying to restore. The old wooden windows and doors are painted N different times, and are in very bad shape. We are a very poor church, we just can't responsibly allocate budget to professional woodshop time to replace our aging architectural elements. That makes me sad... After I run out of projects on my own home, I'll be building replacement doors & windows over the years as a gift. This will take me a long time given I can only do this in my limited hobby hours

Then why is a tenoner not part of your machinery package?

I'm limited on space, and it's going to very difficult to justify when a shaper can do similar cuts (albeit not as well and more time consuming, but that's OK for a hobby).

Do you already have a good grasp of the matrix of factors to improving the quality of finish and minimizing tear-out?

I've watched content on this, but I'm sure there's always more to learn here.

The literature recommendations are appreciated. I'll pick up some copies.

[stephen thomas]

* I want to make doors and windows for my own home and replace the low end vinyl that is installed already. I love the appearance of wood windows/doors and want the satisfaction of doing this myself. Saving money is not a goal here btw, just for the joy of doing it. It's also just what I do in my hobby time.

* I am on the board of my local church. It is a beautiful, historic 1920s structure we are trying to restore. The old wooden windows and doors are painted N different times, and are in very bad shape. We are a very poor church, we just can't responsibly allocate budget to professional woodshop time to replace our aging architectural elements. After I run out of projects on my own home, I'll be building replacement doors & windows over the years as a gift. This will take me a long time given I can only do this in my limited hobby hours

You are screwed.
Cutters for things like that don't come out of a box.
You will have to start grinding your own.
OTOH once you spend a year or so at it and become proficient, it is way cheaper - again assuming you are making things where the total production is less than, say maybe 100 units or so.

Just play safe.
I was not overly effusive about _Chisels on a Wheel_ for good reason; however, there are examples and formulas in that book that can help with load calculations when you "really are not sure" building your own.

FWIW since you used space as an objection: at the level of "production" that you contemplate, a router will make most of the profiles if you can grind the tooling.
I owned a tenoner before i owned a shaper. Although once a person gets to wide panel raises, a shaper is most practical, and can be tooled with a feeder to be safe.

[Kory Watson]

You are screwed.
Cutters for things like that don't come out of a box.
You will have to start grinding your own.
OTOH once you spend a year or so at it and become proficient, it is way cheaper - again assuming you are making things where the total production is less than, say maybe 100 units or so.

That sounds fun. I like a challenge. Any literature on this . Chisels on a wheel sounds like a must...