Help me choose a shaper from 3 options.

[brent stanley]

Readying the welder and torches!




I'm using tenon disks, but as Brent mentions they're basically very similar. In this case, however they aren't able to be overlapped for grooving. My tenon disks have shear built into them so the shoulders are crisp top and bottom. These work a little cleaner for me than the rangate groovers, which I currently use just for grooving and basically leave them paired with their respective shims for dedicated grooving tasks.

The brand I purchased is Omas.

Shear can be better for the shoulders sometimes for sure.

[brent stanley]

have old Omas stuff from one or two of the old germans but more multiple cutter heads. There was discussion past that sheer cutters dont cut 90 degrees is it that minimal you dont worry about it. If it is off a bit then it could work for you or against you depending.

What size spacers is everyone using. When I did double saw blades on the shaper the spacer needed to be larger as blades are so much thinner than heads. They do the job but thats all.

brent on the heads what sizes go up past the 250 MM is there a point where they say you use a spindle brace? on the largest heads ive read 2,900 RPM does that line up to the Whitehill stuff thanks w

Yes, shearing with straight knives (as opposed to radiused) can cause a slightly off 90 shoulder (actually mildly radiused) but depending kn the geometry of your cutter vs shoulder height, it can actually work in your favor. If the shoulder is less than or equal to 1/2 of your cutter height it can help, beyong that it might leave a small gap if using non-radiused cutters on a shear.

[brent stanley]

have old Omas stuff from one or two of the old germans but more multiple cutter heads. There was discussion past that sheer cutters dont cut 90 degrees is it that minimal you dont worry about it. If it is off a bit then it could work for you or against you depending.

What size spacers is everyone using. When I did double saw blades on the shaper the spacer needed to be larger as blades are so much thinner than heads. They do the job but thats all.

brent on the heads what sizes go up past the 250 MM is there a point where they say you use a spindle brace? on the largest heads ive read 2,900 RPM does that line up to the Whitehill stuff thanks w

In the cab of an excavator right now Warren so will have to get back to you on details, but the larger the diameter the more exaggerated the imperfections of everything become. Top bearing supports are most commonly used on manual machines for tall pattern work. I have one for one of my machines and it's a bit of a chore to set up. People run 300mm low on the spindle on 1.25" spindles but I
that's getting up there. If I did it all the time I'd be after a heavier spindle and machine. There's a reason a lot of thru and thru or pass through tenoners have top support.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have a 250 mm adjustable grooves for my sliding saw that I sometimes use for tenoning in the shaper. It cuts ok but my 250mm Garniga tenon head with sheer cutting works a lot better. It’s Z3. Sheer is a non issue for tenon heads. Its hardly noticeable on 50 mm tall rebate heads.
picture of the 250 mm adj Grover set up for tenons.
IMG_4852.jpg
picture of the 250 mm Garniga head. It’s my go to for custom work. Can be stacked to make single or double tenons and an extra smaller head for the glass rebate. Along with slots for radius, chamfer and grooving knives. I looked at Brian’s Omas head and very similar to the Garniga.
IMG_3295.jpgIMG_4805.jpg
250mm heads can run with 30mm or 1.25 shafts. Both SCM and Martin say 300 or 310 max for 1.25 shafts. For my 320 and 350 mm tenon heads I use 40 and 50 mm shafts. I usually run the 250 mm heads at 4000 to 4500rpm. The 320 heads at 3000. Shaper cutter geometry is getting better from the leading mfgs for the Lineal machines now common in Europe and those heads can be run faster yet.
a moot point for shapers though.
tenoners with stacked tooling can run a 50 mm X 330mm shaft without a overhead bearing. The overhead is needed on 500 mm shafts though. On a decent shaper no need for a overhead bearing.

[brent stanley]

have old Omas stuff from one or two of the old germans but more multiple cutter heads. There was discussion past that sheer cutters dont cut 90 degrees is it that minimal you dont worry about it. If it is off a bit then it could work for you or against you depending.

What size spacers is everyone using. When I did double saw blades on the shaper the spacer needed to be larger as blades are so much thinner than heads. They do the job but thats all.

brent on the heads what sizes go up past the 250 MM is there a point where they say you use a spindle brace? on the largest heads ive read 2,900 RPM does that line up to the Whitehill stuff thanks w

Warren, 2500 to 3500 rpm for the 350mm discs. They're pretty big though and don't always fit in guarding.

It's hard to explain plain without drawings but the shear cutters in most tenoning situations will make the visible edges/faces of the joint close up before the rest of the shoulder helping to guarantee a very small glue line. The affect is usually very mild, and pretty often insignificant but I find the glue lines noticibly heavier if you edge joint two wide boards and try to edge glue them together. I don't personally do that very often as I have a couple of nice jointers that do the job, but I have had people choose straight over shear because of this.

[Warren Lake]

that would only work if the angle worked to the joint in the right place. sometimes I under cut stuff with a chisel for more pre load.

[brent stanley]

that would only work if the angle worked to the joint in the right place. sometimes I under cut stuff with a chisel for more pre load.

Typically the way it works, it works in your favor. With green timbers I often cut the shoulders slightly off 90 on purpose to account for shrinkage but also to work better with preloading heavily drawbored pegs.

[brent stanley]

Thanks, Brent! Appreciate the tip!

John, here is a video I did about one of the 300mm, Z4 dual shear blocks. It was modified at the bore to work on a radial arm saw for a friend but was otherwise the same as their main 300mm tenon discs.

https://youtu.be/B9wYTsUzos8?si=ijXimiyGsnMnQicc

[stephen thomas]

have old Omas stuff from one or two of the old germans but more multiple cutter heads. There was discussion past that sheer cutters dont cut 90 degrees is it that minimal you dont worry about it.

Is that because they are insert heads?
Or is there an issue with sharpening them?

When i sharpen shear heads, they cut square.
(This set is very much like a tenon head, however it is used in a production jointer, so the shoulders are not finished, here) But the heads cut straight across, and parallel with the spindle axis.

DSC_0146.jpgDSC_0162.jpgDSC_0170.jpg

[Warren Lake]

Just what I read here past. My inserts heads knives are straight.

[brent stanley]

Is that because they are insert heads?
Or is there an issue with sharpening them?

When i sharpen shear heads, they cut square.
(This set is very much like a tenon head, however it is used in a production jointer, so the shoulders are not finished, here) But the heads cut straight across, and parallel with the spindle axis.

DSC_0146.jpgDSC_0162.jpgDSC_0170.jpg

Yes, this is because your knives end up with a mild radius to compensate for it. So a skew knife head which is ground in the machine (like a jointer or planer) would by default end up with a small radius. However if you put a straight knife on a skew without adding a compensatory radius, it will in turn cut a small radius in the work piece. I did a little video talking about it here:

https://youtu.be/-kaS1iLAqS4?si=UioOEGkpgAbzQ8mt

B

[stephen thomas]

That's interesting Brent - I wonder why they do that?
When i first started making insert heads, inserts could be obtained with curvature for a given skew, so that they (inserts) would plane a flat surface.

I did not keep up with those, built the heads i needed for my work, and basically lost track as i aged out.
But a little surprised that the curved inserts did not continue.

Thank you for the explanation.

[brent stanley]

That's interesting Brent - I wonder why they do that?
When i first started making insert heads, inserts could be obtained with curvature for a given skew, so that they (inserts) would plane a flat surface.

I did not keep up with those, built the heads i needed for my work, and basically lost track as i aged out.
But a little surprised that the curved inserts did not continue.

Thank you for the explanation.

The shear-cut segmented style (like the popular Byrd head) use radiused individual inserts to compensate for the shear angle they are set in at. That said, I have a segmented, insert style head that is not shear and still uses radiused cutters to effectively give a slight shearing action anyway, it works very well.

B

[John Pendery]

Brent, thanks for sharing the neat video! The turn blade groover name threw me for a loop. I’m ordering some profile knives for a job I’m working on and thinking about adding a couple 250mm tenoning discs that I’ve been needing, but might hold off to explore all options. Been very happy with all my whitehill stuff so far though.

Brian, thanks for the info! I like the Rangate adjustable groovers, but also just use them for grooving. For small tenons my go to is the multi use cutter which has become one of my favorite cutters. Did you purchase your Omas disc’s through Scott Sargeant?

Joe, thanks for additional info on your setups. Now that Garniga is TWT, do you know if they still manufacture a tenon head like your older Garniga setup?

[Aaron Inami]

Hi Kory,

I've been out of town for over a week, but it looks like most of the posts are related to technique and cutter choices.

I saw back on page 15 that you are considering several used auction items. I will state here that unless you are going down to inspect/load/ship the equipment yourself, the shipping process is pretty much a crapshoot. Most "remote" shipping companies will not know how to palletize/load/ship this type of equipment (in the 1700-2000 lbs mass). All it takes is one accident or equipment drop and you should consider it a $$$ garbage donation. It's extremely difficult to get any return based on insurance. Most of these will force you to submit a lawsuit, which goes down a rabbit hole because you are looking at a process that occured through multiple states. At that point, it's pretty much a loss.

Moving this kind of equipment properly will require a rigging type company. Think flatbed with a forklift on a mini-trailer. This can range anywhere from $1200 to several thousand based on distance. Just something to keep in mind. You can move your own equipment if you wish, but I would check to see what is covered through your auto insurance (my own auto insurance company would not cover anything on a trailer).