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Thread: Dust collection design - 2400sqft shop

  1. #1
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    Dust collection design - 2400sqft shop

    Hi everyone, it's been a while. We bought a property and I've moved everything into the shop. Countless trailer loads!

    I'm about to order clamp ducting and want feedback on designing the layout. Does anyone have any experience with design services for large personal shops?

    Paying a bit for design could be worth it. It just seems like I fall somewhere between a hobby shop (one machine in use at a time) and a commercial shop (all ports wide open). So I don't know who to talk to.

    I want to get it all right because it's a lot of pipe to order, and given that the longest run is 75', I want to make sure my 5hp Clearvue with 6" inlet will be sufficient. I don't want to find out the hard way that 7 or 8" would have been better, and have to replace a bunch or all of it. I had about 55' for the longest run at my previous shop, and the DC just barely kept up, but that was with SD pvc pipe that wasn't sealed at all.

    See images for the layout I've come up with. The furthest away from the DC is the jointer at about 75'.

    I've talked to Oneida tech and they were a bit snooty. I'm planning to get the duct through blastgateco, as they are responsive and have great pricing, but they don't seem to provide much technical design help.

    lateral dimensions.jpg

    Screenshot 2024-05-28 at 13.26.38.jpg

    Screenshot 2024-05-28 at 13.27.37.jpg
    JonathanJungDesign.com

  2. #2
    There are plenty of engineers specializing in system design for a fee. On the other hand it is not that hard to design a simple system where only one or two machines are in use at once. I started with this guide from Air Handling Systems to design a layout for a 4,000 sq ft 5 man shop and it has worked out pretty well. The key is to determine the volume and static pressure requirements of the most demanding branch in order to determine the needed blower size. 6" main sounds kind of small for such long runs but it may be fine- just do the math. https://airhand.com/dustcollectioninfo/

    Blastgateco is great, our turning club just ordered a batch of supplies for a new duct layout and they shipped right away with competitive pricing and good quality parts.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 05-28-2024 at 9:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Does Clearvue provide advice? They do, after all, make your DC, so...

    I found Oneida's input useful but maybe that's because I bought a DC from them, just not the ducting. I went with Nordfab, but my design is far less complex and large as your shop, so if it were me then Clearvue and Blastgateco input would be paramount before I made the purchase or even did much design work.

  4. #4
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    I've read through the calculators with ClearVue, Air Handling Systems, and for some reason I'm not getting it. But my brain has been taxed a lot lately and I'm weary.

    I'd like to be able to run two machines simultaneously.

    Some machines like the WBS don't provide CFM requirements (only air speed).
    JonathanJungDesign.com

  5. #5
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    For a shop of this size, you may want to consider working with Oneida, both for the "oomph" that's likely need to cover the space and tools, but to also get the most efficient design. Your illustration is too "square" in that respect; too many branches that head off at 90 angles, etc. Oneida has industrial experience and should be able to get it right for you first go. It's not just about CFM but also a whole bunch of other things due to the distances, etc.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
    I just went through this with similar equipment and shop size to you. I purchased my duct from BlastGateCo and am pleased with their product, service, and price. I drew up the design in SketchUp and sent it to BlastGateCo to get their opinion on any modifications that should be made. They seemed pleased with the layout so that's what I ordered and installed. I used an 8" main trunk, reduced to 7" off the main for branches that served more than one drop, or 6" off the main for single drops. A couple of my furthest drops I only reduced to 7" because the static pressure loss was too great in 6" (according to Pentz's static calculator).

    Here's my layout. Like you, I'm running a 5hp ClearVue cyclone and there is plenty of suction with several gates open at a time. The 7" gate does reduce suction on other open gates so, if I were to do it over, I would've just made all the drops 6" but, other than that, this layout is working better than expected.

    8" is Blue
    7" is Orange
    6" is Green
    4" is Purple
    1.jpg 6.jpg 2.jpg 5.jpg

    If you want to have multiple gates open at the same time, you would be better served to go with an 8" main and 6" drops. Even with just one gate open on those long runs, you'll have a lot of static pressure losses with all 6" duct. I ran your longest duct run through Pentz's static calculator and came up with about 13" wc with all 6" duct. Changing that to an 8" main with 6" drop, it is about 10" wc.

    A few suggestions:
    - The drops should come off the main horizontally before dropping vertically to the machine.
    - Keep flex to a minimum.
    - Enlarge machine ports to 6" if possible.
    - Mimimize 90 elbows.
    Last edited by Michael Zerance; 05-28-2024 at 8:41 PM.
    - Mike

  7. #7
    It appears you intend to run your ductwork between roof trusses which is dictating 90 degree branches. If you can run below the trusses or even below the floor you will be able to reduce the total length of pipe and use more 45 degree turns, reducing the static pressure losses as well as the component costs. Keep the runs as short and the bends as gradual as possible.

    If Oneida or Clearvue don't offer the design service you want it might be worth asking around local HVAC shops or larger woodworking firms for an engineering outfit experienced in dust collection system design. Plan on spending some $$.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    For a shop of this size, you may want to consider working with Oneida, both for the "oomph" that's likely need to cover the space and tools, but to also get the most efficient design. Your illustration is too "square" in that respect; too many branches that head off at 90 angles, etc. Oneida has industrial experience and should be able to get it right for you first go. It's not just about CFM but also a whole bunch of other things due to the distances, etc.
    I agree that his design needs to be revised. Certainly, Oneida or ClearVue (or others) can do the design for him and they would do a professional job but I don't think he's dealing with anything here that is overly complicated. He already has the shop laid out and drawn up so I don't think it's out of the question for him to do the revisions and finalize a duct layout that would work well. It would just require an investment of time to do so.
    - Mike

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    It appears you intend to run your ductwork between roof trusses which is dictating 90 degree branches. If you can run below the trusses or even below the floor you will be able to reduce the total length of pipe and use more 45 degree turns, reducing the static pressure losses as well as the component costs. Keep the runs as short and the bends as gradual as possible.
    Good advice.

    OP, are the trusses open or is there a ceiling?
    - Mike

  10. #10
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    That blower sounds small. I'm using a blower with an 11" inlet, 10 hp variable speed. I also have a 3hp 6" blower for the cross cut saws. This is for a one person shop. I don't even have a thickness sander.

    I ran the main lines on the diagonal. All the drops then come in at 45 degrees. It makes the runs shorter.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Jung View Post
    Some machines like the WBS don't provide CFM requirements (only air speed).
    You can calculate the cfm by multiplying air speed by the inlet area.

    By the way, congratulations on moving into the new shop.
    Last edited by Kevin Jenness; 05-28-2024 at 9:40 PM.

  12. #12
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    The shop is completely finished, including the ceiling, with drywall. I don't want to hang the ductwork below the ceiling or under a floating floor because there's already the bare minimum ceiling height. So I'm running it in the loft which has good access with stairs. Running the trunks in the trusses necessitates the square layout - I'm not sure how to do it otherwise.

    Thanks so much for sharing your layout Michael. The main difference between yours and mine is that I am pushing machines to the walls. I need lots of open floorspace for large builds.

    Yeah it's so cool, there's no words going from two commercial spaces at around $2k a month to having it 5 seconds from our house.
    JonathanJungDesign.com

  13. #13
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    I used the duct size calculator in Excel format on Bill Pentz's dust collection webpage. https://www.billpentz.com/woodworkin...ne/ducting.php May not be obvious how to use unless you have some engineering background. Lots of good info there, although you heed to take his obsession with fine dust and health with a grain of salt.
    NOW you tell me...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Jung View Post
    The shop is completely finished, including the ceiling, with drywall. I don't want to hang the ductwork below the ceiling or under a floating floor because there's already the bare minimum ceiling height. So I'm running it in the loft which has good access with stairs. Running the trunks in the trusses necessitates the square layout - I'm not sure how to do it otherwise.
    That's less than ideal. The 90 branches and the excess duct are going to be detrimental to air flow. Would you be able to run most of the duct at the ceiling along the walls? You would probably have to have one main duct cross from your closet to where your table saw is situated but the remaining could be up closer to the walls where it would not be an obstruction. How high are your ceilings?
    - Mike

  15. #15
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    The layout doesn't show all the elbows and wyes. There will be no hard 90s, or T's. Each junction is a wye and a 45deg and each elbow is a 45deg or 90deg with a 1.5 CLR.
    JonathanJungDesign.com

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