Shaker Window Sash Profile

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The Shakers would not have decorated sash though. Bridal joints, or draw bore mortise and through tenon. The Historical Society I belong to owns a one room country schoolhouse. Still has the original draw bore sash in it, looks like Douglas Fir that had to have come in by steam train from the coast in 1861.
Attachment 519145

The out house looks as legit as everything else. That must be a two seater? Great images! My Mom owns the old school house in Wane County Iowa that she and grandma attended. I fantasize about saving it. I don't think it will happen. : (

[Kevin Jenness]

If you already sold the client on a profile a custom cutter set may be required. I recently had a pair of corrugated back shaper knives and a coping router bit for a door made by Ct Saw & Tool for about $500 delivered. https://ctsaw.com/

I suspect you would find a variety of sash profiles in Shaker buildings depending on era and location.

[Richard Coers]

Thank you for your input. So the sashes would be square edged? Not even a bevel? What profile would be put on the glazing bars (muntins)?

I'm sorry, I don't recall. This is a nice drawing of old window construction, but not shaker. https://thecraftsmanblog.com/all-abo...toric-windows/
Screenshot 2024-05-01 at 12.27.08 AM.png

[Richard Coers]

Looks like I am wrong. Appears to have a bevel on the inside based on windows in this restoration, but very hard to see. Very slim rails and stiles! https://www.shakers.org/schoolhouse-...haker-village/
Screenshot 2024-05-01 at 12.35.21 AM.png

[Richard Coers]

The out house looks as legit as everything else. That must be a two seater? Great images! My Mom owns the old school house in Wane County Iowa that she and grandma attended. I fantasize about saving it. I don't think it will happen. : (

Two seater at two different heights for the wide range of grades and child sizes. There are trenches out the back for clean out, these were never moved. Also a second one for the boys.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The gentleman I worked for in Boston in 1981 used a Craftsman Crome Edge molding cutter on the table saw to make window sash. It took at least two passes. I don't remember how he did the cope & tenon. I do remember that it was tedious. The mortises were cut on the drill press with a hollow chisel. I made the sills, jambs, casings, built the cases, assembled & installed the windows but did not put the sash together. Several of these were triple hung and went right down to the floor to provide access to the back garden. They were a Victorian ancestor to the patio door. I wonder how they have held up over the years.

Screen Shot 2024-05-01 at 6.19.45 AM.jpg
P.S. The Shakers made Victorian furniture & woodwork too. Some is quite ornate.

[James White]

That is an interesting story, Maurice. Thank's for sharing it. I remember those Craftsman sets!

[James White]

Kevin,
I am not so sure they are sold on the profile I offered as much as the idea of having a shaker aesthetic vs the more ornate Ogee profile. I think they would be receptive to the Ovolo's simplicity. However so far I have not found an ovolo cutter set that can do 1.5" thick sashes. These are interior "partition" windows that will be a single sash 56"s tall so I want the muntins to have some rigidity.

CMT has the below set. However it does not specify the max thickness sash it can do.
https://www.cmtorangetools.com/na-en...outer-bit-sets

[Jim Becker]

The Shakers would not have decorated sash though. Bridal joints, or draw bore mortise and through tenon. The Historical Society I belong to owns a one room country schoolhouse. Still has the original draw bore sash in it, looks like Douglas Fir that had to have come in by steam train from the coast in 1861.

I agree with this, and not just for Shaker...the original window frames in the 250 year old portion of our former property were draw-bored, although the sashes I suspect were much newer and not drawbored. (I replaced those myself with fixed windows for efficiency) Drawbores have a nice advantage in that they need no other fasteners and properly done, don't need glue, either.

[Kevin Jenness]

Kevin,
I am not so sure they are sold on the profile I offered as much as the idea of having a shaker aesthetic vs the more ornate Ogee profile. I think they would be receptive to the Ovolo's simplicity. However so far I have not found an ovolo cutter set that can do 1.5" thick sashes. These are interior "partition" windows that will be a single sash 56"s tall so I want the muntins to have some rigidity.

CMT has the below set. However it does not specify the max thickness sash it can do.
https://www.cmtorangetools.com/na-en...outer-bit-sets

There isn't any maximum thickness with that set as it cuts only the profiled part of the sash bars. The glass rabbet must be cut with another tool with a straight profile like a rabbeting bit or dado head and can be as deep as you want. The problem is getting the right proportions relative to your desired thickness. The bead on the CMT set (really not an "ovolo" or egg shaped contour) is a 1/4" radius, so if you left a 1/16" quirk and a 1/4" uncut land for the mortises and tenons you would wind up with a 1 1/16" high x 1/4" deep glass rabbet in 1 1/2" stock. I am judging by eye that the cope cutter is designed for a 1/4" thick tenon though it is not called out. It seems thin to me; 3/8" to 1/2" would be better structurally but require a different coping tool. I leave it to you to decide what looks correct.

Personally I would opt for a taller, flatter true ovolo or a bevel, but it would probably require custom tooling. You could go with a square edge but that seems inelegant.

[James White]

Kevin,
I agree with your assessment regarding that ovolo looking too squashed. Interesting enough. They have a more normal looking ovolo cutter. However it is a 1/4" shank bit. That makes me concerned about cut quality.

https://www.amazon.com/CMT-855-308-1.../dp/B00DPE9PPO

https://www.amazon.com/CMT-855-307-1...0DPE9P86&psc=1

There isn't any maximum thickness with that set as it cuts only the profiled part of the sash bars. The glass rabbet must be cut with another tool with a straight profile like a rabbeting bit or dado head and can be as deep as you want. The problem is getting the right proportions relative to your desired thickness. The bead on the CMT set (really not an "ovolo" or egg shaped contour) is a 1/4" radius, so if you left a 1/16" quirk and a 1/4" uncut land for the mortises and tenons you would wind up with a 1 1/16" high x 1/4" deep glass rabbet in 1 1/2" stock. I am judging by eye that the cope cutter is designed for a 1/4" thick tenon though it is not called out. It seems thin to me; 3/8" to 1/2" would be better structurally but require a different coping tool. I leave it to you to decide what looks correct.

Personally I would opt for a taller, flatter true ovolo or a bevel, but it would probably require custom tooling. You could go with a square edge but that seems inelegant.

[Tom M King]

There is no good reason to draw bore today's kiln dried wood. Most of the failed old windows I've worked on failed because the draw bored pin spelched the tenon out, especially if that particular rail was quarter sawn.

The good thing about pegged windows is that you can replace parts on 200 year old sash by driving the pegs out and taking it apart-see picture with replaced glazing bars in an 1798 sash.

I don't use glue in making reproduction 18th and 19th Century sash, shutters, or doors. The sash in this picture haven't been pegged yet, but weren't draw bored when they were.

Around here, all the remaining original 18th Century sash have 3/4" wide muntins. In the 19th Century houses they narrowed them to 5/8".

A molding plane is easy to use. You hog off most of the material to close to the profile with multiple passes on the table saw, and the molding plane just finishes. If you did a great job hogging with the table saw, the first couple of passes just takes off strings, and then a pass or two of very thin shavings to finish.

The size of this job is pretty close to break even between custom cutters and doing them by hand.

[James White]

Thank you, Tom

so what profile was used on those 3/4 inch muntins?

There is no good reason to draw bore today's kiln dried wood. Most of the failed old windows I've worked on failed because the draw bored pin spelched the tenon out, especially if that particular rail was quarter sawn.

The good thing about pegged windows is that you can replace parts on 200 year old sash by driving the pegs out and taking it apart-see picture with replaced glazing bars in an 1798 sash.

I don't use glue in making reproduction 18th and 19th Century sash, shutters, or doors. The sash in this picture haven't been pegged yet, but weren't draw bored when they were.

Around here, all the remaining original 18th Century sash have 3/4" wide muntins. In the 19th Century houses they narrowed them to 5/8".

A molding plane is easy to use. You hog off most of the material to close to the profile with multiple passes on the table saw, and the molding plane just finishes. If you did a great job hogging with the table saw, the first couple of passes just takes off strings, and then a pass or two of very thin shavings to finish.

The size of this job is pretty close to break even between custom cutters and doing them by hand.

[Tom M King]

Ovolo for the 3/4. Ogee for the 5/8. No exceptions in this part of the country.

[James White]

Thank you!