cope and stick micro shaker?

[Rich Engelhardt]

kevin, sorry, you're right, that was pretty vague. let me clarify:

1) is there precedence in industry, or design, for a cope and stick micro shaker, where the stiles run long and the rails meet the stiles at a 90, vs. the more commonly seen mitered door style? i'm working on a bid for an architect who's telling us that another bidder is specifying the panels as "cope and stick," and searches turned up nothing.

2) in the event it's a "thing," has anyone had a knife profile made that achieves this? i don't think it's as simple as described, as the stock will be thicker (1" or so), and the intersection with the 3/4" panel could be customized. for example, a slight break at the top to ensure finishes don't bridge, and perhaps some geometry to best ensure a flush back between the panel and frame...

i'm just asking to see if anyone has done this, considered the issues, and had a matching set designed and made, before i undertake it.

hope that clarifies, and isn't a terribly stupid question.

-- dz

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

[David Zaret]

David, understood. I was only thinking out loud in my previous post if this style is in fact more efficient to build how one would traditionally do cope and sticking on the shaper of if this is an exception due to just how narrow the parts are. Really was just echoing your original question I guess. Maybe it gets as simple as differing from one shop equipped with a stile and rail cabinet door clamp to another with miter door clamping table.

yeah it's a strange situation. very large project, big money on the line, and the competitor we are up against seemingly specified "cope and stick." i think that the architect might actually not know the answer. we have a query in with them to get clear info.

if i had more space, i would have a big case/door clamp. and a SLRS. oh, and a 13' edge bander. oh, and an enormous heated panel press. ... but alas, there's no room, and my shop can't be further expanded. oh well. first word problems.

[John Pendery]

yeah it's a strange situation. very large project, big money on the line, and the competitor we are up against seemingly specified "cope and stick." i think that the architect might actually not know the answer. we have a query in with them to get clear info.

if i had more space, i would have a big case/door clamp. and a SLRS. oh, and a 13' edge bander. oh, and an enormous heated panel press. ... but alas, there's no room, and my shop can't be further expanded. oh well. first word problems.

Haha I feel ya man! I feel the pain of shop squeeze everyday. It can be irritating when architects and designers weigh in heavily on construction details, sometimes not quite knowing what those details really mean from a practical or aesthetic standpoint. Good luck with the bid and hope you land the job. Keep us posted how you execute if it gets there. If a micro shaker job ever comes my way again I’ll reference back to your experience!

[David Zaret]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was ignorant about what "mini shaker" is.
I'm wondering if the architect knows what the client is expecting?

If I were a client and told the architect I wanted "mini shaker" and was expecting to see mitered corners - I would be very upset at seeing a bunch of end grain frames.

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz

[andrew whicker]

So how do the hinges work on this narrow of a band? You use euro hinges directly into the panel? (edit: I guess they do just go into the panel)

Edit: Here is a thread on the Festool page w/ some good photos. I'm having a hard time deciphering the words the guy uses to describe, but maybe I'm just not in the proper headspace at the moment. I did work until 1 last night!

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/v...r-fronts-made/

[Jared Sankovich]

So how do the hinges work on this narrow of a band? You use euro hinges directly into the panel? (edit: I guess they do just go into the panel)

Edit: Here is a thread on the Festool page w/ some good photos. I'm having a hard time deciphering the words the guy uses to describe, but maybe I'm just not in the proper headspace at the moment. I did work until 1 last night!

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/v...r-fronts-made/

They are usually 3/4 panels with applied moulding on the perimeter and flat backs. I've seen some with floating panels and full sized rails/stiles on the back, but with micro fronts.

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a square edge t&g for thin material, in which case a narrow groover and a pair of matched square cutters plus a spacer would do, or something else?

This is how I do it. A pair of 10" discs for tenon side and an adjustable groover for the the cope. I always do 1" shouldered tenons. but thats just me.

[William Hodge]

Enfield Shaker Village has flat panel cupboards, but the entry, interior, and closet doors have moldings, and some raised panels. The cope and stick refers to the cutters.

[Rich Engelhardt]

so... regular cabinet cope and stick doors have the stiles running long... that's not offensive, but it would be in a micro-shaker configuration? i don't know that i have a strong opinion on this, as i don't love micro shaker as a design style to begin with, but i don't know that the cope and stick joints vs. miter joints are a real design consideration (i suppose we'll find out). my guess is that we see primarily mitered skinny shaker because ... how else do you make them? it'll be interesting to see how the architect responds.

-- dz

It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

[David Zaret]

It would be every bit as offensive in a "regular" configuration - - if - - it was not what the end user wants.
This is the type of thing to clear up now.

absolutely agree. we'll see what the architect says.

[Joe Calhoon]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
IMG_0012.jpeg

[John Pendery]

Might be best to make a sample corner of each. I’ve never done these but think I would prefer a mitered corner and treat it like thick edge banding. Probably would rebate it so the inside edge overlaps the plywood to prevent glue squeeze out. Also mitering you could run the small radius on the inside before assembly. With cope and stick that inside radius will be a bit tricky. Also applying and gluing as edge banding the flush joint at the back will be easier to achieve and get a tight glue line. Cope and stick might be more difficult to achieve this. Making samples is always helpful to work out construction details.
I assume we are talking about doors like the picture posted above? The 2 on top.
IMG_0012.jpeg

Joe, you have articulated my line of thinking very well here. The inside edge radius was one of the reasons I chose for the miter wrap back when I did that kitchen in this style, along with the flush back to the panel. Glad I’m not all alone and completely crazy!

[Joe Calhoon]

John, I would picture a section something like this. Glue and clamp with PVA double coating the ply. Would be plenty strong.

IMG_8756.jpg

[John Pendery]

Joe, that’s exactly how I constructed the doors and drawer fronts. Milling the edging in longer runs and cutting to length made for quick work. The flush seam on the back was what bothered me, but I couldn’t figure a way around it for hinges. I’m not sure why it bothered me as I remember it coming out nicely, but it’s my lingering memory for some reason

[David Zaret]

the architect came back calling for a mitered corner. so i'm proceeding that way, but i'm going to do a slightly more complex profile. 1" x 1" frame, but i'm going to do a groove profile, and run a rabbet on the panel. i'll design it so that the bottom lines up flush, i won't have to worry about vertical movement, and i'll account for a radius on the top and bottom edge covering the face to account for finish bridging. we'll see how it goes.