Is the cost of anything not going up?

[Doug Garson]

How about the computer you're using to access this forum?

Or big screen UHD TVs, or hard drive storage mediums. If you stop and think there are a at least a few things that have gone down in price over the last few decades.

[Doug Garson]

They are villains in some ways. During recent lockdowns, demand for petroleum plummeted and so did petroleum prices. Of course, oil companies halted production big time and laid off many thousands. When demand started to increase, oil companies didn't increase production. They simply let high demand and low supply create a spike in prices. Then they sat back and reaped record profits while people tended to blame a certain politician for high gas prices.

As oil prices go higher, the incentive for alternate energy sources increases as well. So, US oil companies let the high prices ride for a while, THEN they slowly started to increase production until the US became the world's largest producer of petroleum.

US oil companies know the end of petroleum energy for most everything is coming. In fact, they are paradoxically investing in renewable energy while simultaneously spending tens of millions of dollars on misinformation campaigns. If you see people on TV telling us climate change is a hoax, those people invariably work for some "non-profit" funded by oil companies. If you see articles online or in print ridiculing the green energy industry, those articles were paid for by oil companies. If you see memes about how electric vehicles die in the cold and burst into flames, those were created and perpetuated by oil companies. (Sure, there is some truth to this, but oil companies exaggerate and perpetuate it while conveniently not mentioning that ICE vehicles also die in the cold and burst into flames.) Everyday people embrace all this misinformation and propaganda because they believe they are being deceived by an evil movement to destroy America. (At least that's what they tell me. And this is all very similar to tobacco companies creating and perpetuating information in the 70s and 80s about how there's no proof smoking causes cancer.)

Sure, OPEC is also a very big factor in global petroleum prices, but US oil companies can also push prices either way if they want; and they do.

Agreed, anyone who downplays the severity of global climate change to protect their own future profits is a villain. Look no further than the province of Alberta, probably the most right wing province in Canada and our biggest O&G producer, declared the wild fire season started on March 1st this year, historically it was April 1st.

[Doug Garson]

Not sure " Frito-Lay party size snacks " would be considered non discretionary. I agree though that much of current inflation is corporate greed not increased costs of production and delivery.

This is the post that diverted the thread into a discussion on big oil. Note there is no reference to big oil. Two post later someone is linking it to big oil. Was it Shakespeare who said "methinks the lady duth protest too much?"

[Dave Zellers]

This is easily the most interesting/important discussion I've ever read on SMC. For the record, I align with Malcolm. The transition away from oil and gas dominance is important, cleaning the air is vital, but we are moving too fast. It's more political than logical. People have to heat their homes. I have a hunch fossil fuels will be with us for a very long time, if not forever. Introducing viable alternatives is great and should be encouraged of course. The more diverse our energy supply is, the more robust it is. Things happen. A huge solar farm in Texas was just wiped out by a hail storm. Until that can be rebuilt, alternatives are needed to make up that loss of power.

[Doug Garson]

This is easily the most interesting/important discussion I've ever read on SMC. For the record, I align with Malcolm. The transition away from oil and gas dominance is important, cleaning the air is vital, but we are moving too fast. It's more political than logical. People have to heat their homes. I have a hunch fossil fuels will be with us for a very long time, if not forever. Introducing viable alternatives is great and should be encouraged of course. The more diverse our energy supply is, the more robust it is. Things happen. A huge solar farm in Texas was just wiped out by a hail storm. Until that can be rebuilt, alternatives are needed to make up that loss of power.

What, in your opinion, are signs that we are moving too fast?

Here are a few signs that we are not. The hottest 10 years on record for world temperatures are the last 8 years, yes only 8 because of ties. That hail storm you referred to was a sign of more severe weather events as a result of climate change. Another thread on this forum discusses increases in home insurance, higher rates are driven in large part by increases in severe weather events.

[Pat Germain]

Surprise, surprise. I tried.


...and yet this is where you started. So, I'll take this as a tiny win for reality.


I left this one alone until now to keep from laughing.

Good thing no one has done this to Big Oil. You know.... like there is no fracking exaggeration, no 300mpg technology suppression misinformation, no outright lies and fraud on groundwater contamination, no internet forum myths. And no one in PA has ever drilled a hole in a crude pipeline then reported the evil 'spill' to the EPA, all while they were on security cameras. ...Right?? Right. ROFLMAO

EVs? Gotta keep O&G prices up, but down just enough to discourage switch to EVs?
Imagine that! Competition! Really good thing this has never happened before. Right?
Except the same dilemma has existed since the Model T. Even the villains know it is in no ones best interest to keep prices high: prior to EVs, if gasoline prices got too high, people simply quit driving. Rode bikes. Soda sales plunged. Huge drag on the economy. Big Oil went broke. Then who would make gear oil for wind turbines, skins for solar cells, straws, fertilizer, Crocs, performance fabrics for The North Face, or elastic for my lacy delicates? Terrible horrible very bad no good. Best we not go there. Teehee.

Yep. A sundown industry. Enjoy. Out.

To be clear, I know the planet depends heavily on petroleum; energy, plastics, synthetic rubber, lubricants and so on. That's why petroleum prices are a big part of inflation. And again we agree that oil prices can't stay too high or it has a negative affect on profits.

Sure, oil companies have been unfairly accused of things they didn't do. But they definitely, most absolutely, without question spend money on misinformation campaigns. This is not my opinion. Laughing at something doesn't make it false. Ironically, it was oil company scientists who first figured out burning fossil fuels is affecting the climate.

[Ronald Blue]

What, in your opinion, are signs that we are moving too fast?

Here are a few signs that we are not. The hottest 10 years on record for world temperatures are the last 8 years, yes only 8 because of ties. That hail storm you referred to was a sign of more severe weather events as a result of climate change. Another thread on this forum discusses increases in home insurance, higher rates are driven in large part by increases in severe weather events.

Since you live North of the border you probably wouldn't know this. But there have been hail storms for as long as I can remember and I'm 66. Golf ball, baseball, even softball sized hail while not common occurrences has been associated with severe weather for years. With solar farms becoming common place it's only to be expected that hail will strike one or more of these installations. They build more of them in the southern regions for the added sunshine which is also where more severe weather happens. Going green is fine. When the government decides when it will happen is when it becomes a snafu. I know Canada already drew the line in the sand for motor vehicles and it appears we are going to do the same only quicker now. They are saying 2032. So sitting in an office far removed from reality people are deciding that the ICE will no longer meet new emission standards. Based on where current EV prices are there are people who won't be able to afford an EV. Volumes have gotten high enough to show that will probably not impact prices by much. Used vehicle prices will spike I'm sure. That doesn't even touch on whether the electric grid can possibly come close to charging 15.5 million vehicles. That's how many cars and light trucks were sold in the US last year. Anyway it's all speculation until it happens.

[Brian Elfert]

In my lifetime, nothing has ever gone down in price. I remember gas for 30 cents a gallon. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

My point is prices are still going up faster than they have about any time in my adult lifetime. My income has not gone up anywhere near the rate of inflation since 2019.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... This doesn't make them villains, ...

.. is a villain. ...

mmmm "Methinks the gentleman dost lack consistency of thought. And perhapseth a grandiosity of shame for a lifetime of fossil fuelethed boiler building?" -Shakespeare??? ...Nah. Probably not.

...
Sure, oil companies have been unfairly accused of things they didn't do. But they definitely, most absolutely, without question spend money on misinformation campaigns. This is not my opinion. Laughing at something doesn't make it false. Ironically, it was oil company scientists who first figured out burning fossil fuels is affecting the climate.

Pardon, your hypocrisy is showing.

If you don't like fossil fuels, simply don't use them or their derivatives. This includes the keyboard you are typing on. It will help moderate inflation as well.

[Lee DeRaud]

My point is prices are still going up faster than they have about any time in my adult lifetime.

So you're not old enough to remember the 1970-1980s. That, sir, was serious inflation.

My income has not gone up anywhere near the rate of inflation since 2019.

That's a problem for a lot of people, going back well before 2019, but it really wasn't what you asked about when you started this thread.

[Pat Germain]

mmmm "Methinks the gentleman dost lack consistency of thought. And perhapseth a grandiosity of shame for a lifetime of fossil fuelethed boiler building?" -Shakespeare??? ...Nah. Probably not.

Pardon, your hypocrisy is showing.

If you don't like fossil fuels, simply don't use them or their derivatives. This includes the keyboard you are typing on. It will help moderate inflation as well.

This is funny because I actually really like fossil fuels. I own a classic car with a 351 Cleveland and a 750 double-pumper on top. It burns premium. Now, some might say it's hypocritical to talk about climate change while driving a muscle car. But my classic car spends the vast majority of its time parked in the garage. It's a simple fact that burning fossil fuels is negatively affecting the climate and influencing economic inflation. How I feel about it is irrelevant. Moving to renewable energy is a good thing and as electric vehicles become more practical and inexpensive, I will eventually buy one.

I welcome your insight as a petroleum professional, but you keep arguing points which have nothing to do with what I'm saying. Sure, increasing capacity is complicated and difficult, but oil companies can still control how much they produce. You would know first hand that everything oil companies do daily is difficult and complicated.

[Doug Garson]

mmmm "Methinks the gentleman dost lack consistency of thought. And perhapseth a grandiosity of shame for a lifetime of fossil fuelethed boiler building?" -Shakespeare??? ...Nah. Probably not.



Pardon, your hypocrisy is showing.

If you don't like fossil fuels, simply don't use them or their derivatives. This includes the keyboard you are typing on. It will help moderate inflation as well.

No, my statements weren't hypocritical, your taking single words out of context distorts what was said. I said "Demand for gasoline is still increasing but not forever and a lot of production facilities were cut back during the pandemic and I believe companies are hesitant to make large investments to increase production knowing they may not get a return on their investment as demand falls off in the not to distant future. This doesn't make them villains, they have a responsibility to their investors to maximize profits not responsibility to the public to keep prices down."
and later I said "Agreed, anyone who downplays the severity of global climate change to protect their own future profits is a villain."

I don't call that hypocrisy, I'll let you define what your editing of my posts is. Based on our past discussions on this, I thought you were better than that.

[Malcolm McLeod]

No, my statements weren't hypocritical, ...

This was not directed at you.

[Warren Lake]

Pat not to sidetrack have some of the same L46 11:1 and two things with 410 and 411 gears. have you looked at the endless you tubes of converting old to Electric. Its growing constantly. My car friends are dissapointed I even look at that stuff but from first time seeing the white zombie or the 1000 HP mustang i wanted to at least drop in and watch the progression from time to time. now it doesnt matter what old car you have it can be electric. Unaffordable at first it continues to come down more and more. you can order a kit for some cars now direct bolt in now modify no damage turn your 911 back to how it was at anytime.

Id miss the sound and old school feel.

Okay back to whatever we were arguing about

[Malcolm McLeod]

I knew better than to include my last paragraph. Que sera.
I'll make it simpler and try again...

...
Sure, oil companies have been unfairly accused of things they didn't do. But they definitely, most absolutely, without question spend money on misinformation campaigns.

Your hypocrisy is showing. ^Here.^ 2 Sentences. Plain as day.

... but oil companies can still control how much they produce. ...

Certainly they can. And they can certainly go bankrupt.

And you just as certainly fail to grasp - or accept, since this about my 3rd repetition of this - is that what one company can cut, another can increase - and gladly will - to meet current market demands. Big vs small doesn't even play into it, and collusion is illegal anyway.

You clearly resent oil companies' behavior. Don't patronize them.