Sharpening systems vs freehand/stones

[Ned Otter]

I have spent some time sharpening plane irons and chisels over the years, but historically have been much more of a machine-based woodworker. More recently have decided to study hand tools, and of course this requires conquering Mount Sharpening.

My shop time is limited, and I need to make the most of it.

I was wondering if while attempting to attain skills in freehand sharpening, it also makes sense to get some assistance in the form of a Tormek, Work Sharp, etc. It would allow me to at least initially circumvent some of the tedium of sharpening/flattening.

I'm assuming the machines I mentioned work well, but have no experience with them.

Would love to hear from those who have/had these types of systems.

Thanks in advance for your input --

Ned

[Ned Otter]

Reading through other posts on SMC, seems that after using a Tormek/Work sharp, you still need to use stones, so that was obviously a misconception of mine. Hmmm

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Ned, I have been using this system for about 20 years now > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...m?item=05M3101

Veritas® Mk.II Power Sharpening System.jpg

When I purchased mine I was going through a lot more blades than I am nowadays. I bought extra blade holders. I could work five blades at a time. That allowed a blade to cool while others were being worked. Now I dip the blade in some water or spray a bit of water on it when working a single blade.

I used to rehab a lot more planes, chisels and other tools than I do now.

I also purchased a lot of extra abrasive disks.

My blades tend to be sharpened with a single bevel. The Mk.11 design works an edge to a secondary bevel. It isn't difficult to work around that feature if so desired.

jtk

[David Carroll]

I have a Tormek with all the bells and whistles. My original plan was to do the initial grinding on the Tormek and then finish on Arkansas stones and strop. Once the initial bevel is established I refined the edge with the stones and strop. I did that for awhile, but pretty much the machine got little use.

I bought a big, coarse, diamond stone to dress the Arkansas and Coticule stones I was using, and tried to grind tools on it, first using a guide and later freehand. It worked so fast and so well that I bought a full set of diamond stones. That has pretty much filled the spot that the Tormek was intended to fill in my sharpening regimen.

But I do still use the Tormek a good deal for other things, the initial shaping and grinding of carving tools. I have the scissors jig so I use it for those, freehand sharpening of kitchen knives and the like,

Where the Tormek really shines is turning tools. I don't turn much, but the specialized jigs make getting repeatable grinds on turning tools pretty easy.

I'm glad to have it, but I'm not sure I would run out and get one if I was only going to use it for general woodworking tools, unless I did a lot of turning.

I've never owned another sharpening machine. I have access to big industrial grinders, belt and wheel, so I didn't really need to. But I don't make use of these very often. The diamond stones, plus a strop pretty much take care of my general sharpening needs.

DC

[Ned Otter]

Thanks, David --

I have a slow speed 1 HP Rikon Grinder with 80/180 square CBN wheels that I use to hollow grind.


My shop is uninsulated and unconditioned, and while I will be addressing that, I can't even have a spray bottle with water in there at the moment.


Also recently purchased Atoma 400/600/1200, and have Shapton Glass 500/1000/4000/8000, and a few jigs from the past to hold chisels and plane irons.


I got the Atoma to reduce the stone flattening for some of the rougher/intermediate grits, but realize that there will be no substitute for using some type of stones for much finer work.


I'm ok with that, as one generally spends much less time on the finer grits.

[mike stenson]

I also find the Tormek to be too slow, cumbersome, and inconvenient for sharpening anything other than turning tools. I can't speak to the worksharp, I've never even seen one in person.

To be honest, you are already well appointed for sharpening. Of what you already own, I'd use the 500, 4000, and 8000 shapton stones. I use similar grit shapton pros after establishing the bevel on a standard (non-slow speed) grinder. I've found that, as long as I don't ignore the edge, it takes a minute or two to sharpen a tool that's already in use.

[Kevin Jenness]

You don't need to buy any more gear beyond what you have. Use your Rikon to grind just up to the edge and use your stones from there. The hollow grind will allow you to feel when the stone contacts the heel and toe of the hollow bevel until the hollow diminishes and you go back to the grinder. Whatever method you choose just stick to it until it becomes routine.

[Ned Otter]

I think part of my issue is that since the hollow grind is currently done without any jigs or fixtures, not only is the grind inconsistent, I think it goes too far back to the heel, if that's the correct term. And so when I attempt to freehand on stones, there isn't much to support it. I can feel when it rests, but think it might be a better for me if there was just a bit more steel to rest on. I'll be addressing this by getting some actual tool rest(s) for the grinder.

[Tom M King]

I've been through a number of different types of grinder setups. As far as a grinder rest, the one LV sells is very sturdy and much more stationary than it may look in pictures.

A dry grinder makes more mess than you might think, including with a CBN wheel. I had to stop using them in the old museum houses I work on. A friable wheel requires allowing for the wheel diameter to gradually get smaller. The CBN wheel does not do that, always being the same diameter, plus it cuts Much faster. Even though the CBN wheel does not shred itself away like a regular friable wheel does, it puts more metal particles in the air than it seems like it would.

The wet grinders make a different kind of mess. I sold my older model soon after buying the CBN wheel in 2011 if I'm remembering that correctly. The wet grinders are very slow in comparison to dry grinders because the rpm is limited to 150 so it doesn't sling water all over everything. When I first bought the CBN wheel I was excited to not have to deal with the wet mess the Tormek made.

Sometime later I decided the CBN wheel was leaving too much metal in the old houses that had a lot of unfinished old wood in them. About that time I found a sink top large enough to contain the wet grinder mess as well as the rest of the sharpening stone setup. I was always leary of using oil inside the old unfinished wood houses too, so the large sink proved ideal.

At that time I was about to go back to the current model of Tormek. They've made some good improvements over the older models, but for some things I like the stone to be turning towards the edge and some I like for it to be turning away. For reforming a chisel bevel that has been damaged I like for the water to roll over the edge of the chisel. For small turning tools I like for the tool to part the water so you can see exactly what you're doing on the edge. I've been thinking that surely Tormek will come out with a reversible model so you don't have to turn the whole thing around to use the wheel going in different directions.

While I'm still waiting, I bought a cheap Wen wet grinder that has a reverse. It's very serviceable but the jigs aren't nearly as nice as the Tormek jigs. The tool holder is also a different diameter, as are the holders for the legs on the machine. I made one with the correct diameter horizontal rod for the Tormek jigs and the correct diameter legs to fit in the Wen.

The Wen jigs that come with it are useable, but I had been spoiled by the Tormek jigs before that are just more precise. For chisel and plane irons the ones that come with the Wen will do the job. When I bought the Wen I don't think it was much more than $150. It's well worth its price.

As far as honing the edger freehand or with a jig, either will work. There seems to be a lot more ego satisfying about doing it by hand though.

I used a jig to start with back in the early 1970's, changed to hand alone for about 25 years, and then went back to a jig. I hired helpers that no one else would hire that had learning disabilities. They were hopeless at sharpening a chisel by hand, but could easily do it with a jig. Anyone can sharpen an edge with a jig.

Some like to do a secondary bevel because it shortens a little bit of the time necessary to get a useable edge. The trouble with that is that it requires pretty frequent grinding. To simplify things for my crew we stick with a single bevel. When a chisel edge gets damaged (we use chisels for lots of things besides finish work on wood) is the only time one visits a grinder, and then to move the bevel back far enough to get a good edge all the way across. The bevel is made at a shallower angle than you want the final cutting edge just to get it back out of the way. It doesn't even have to be exact, just out of the way. Once there are no chips out of the edge any more the chisel goes to the stones and the final cutting edge is a single bevel. Until the edge finds damage again, it just continues to take over the rest of the bevel and can end up taking over the whole bevel.

That might some like it takes more time, but it really doesn't. The whole process only takes a few minutes to take one from scraping paint off of brick back to shaving hair.

It's simple too, and anyone can do it. I'm not suggesting it's the best system for everyone, but it's the best system for my particular situation, or at least until I come up with something better.

Here is a picture of my sharpening sink that I will make a new cabinet and backsplash for when there is nothing more important to do. I used it for a couple of years just sitting on a couple of sawhorses. It drains to the top of the ground outside with no trap needed under it because no sewer gases are involved. I thought I had a better picture of it, but can't find it. First two pictures are when I was just putting it together. The top is 92" long and came off Craigslist. That's a 2 gallon water heater. We use it for all sorts of other sink uses too, like cleaning paint brushes, and washing hands.

[John Kananis]

I think this is the best advice. I have a tormek, a slow speed 8 inch grinder and a 6 inch grinder that all serve their purpose well individually but short of outfitting your shop with all that grinding gear, a small 6 inch will do you plenty of justice (I had only a variable speed 6 inch delta for many years).

Grinding machines aside, you'll need to settle on what works best for you for hand sharpening. There are so many options and opinions on this that it would make your head spin. I personally love my water-based diamond paste on steel plates but I'm a real oddball in that respect... just pointing out that there's a ton of ways to get to sharp, don't forget to consider the steel you're sharpening and what it demands. O1 and A1 will require different attention and medium.

On jigs: I own a bunch and feel that if you take this route, the LV jig is the nicest (again, this is very subjective) BUT ‐ don't get a jig. Once you have a proper hollow grind, it'll be not so difficult to find your bevel and get a feel for the sharpening. Most woodworkers go to this eventually ones of using an aid so just save yourself some time and money and learn to work your hand tools by hand (imho).

You don't need to buy any more gear beyond what you have. Use your Rikon to grind just up to the edge and use your stones from there. The hollow grind will allow you to feel when the stone contacts the heel and toe of the hollow bevel until the hollow diminishes and you go back to the grinder. Whatever method you choose just stick to it until it becomes routine.

[Ned Otter]

Hi Tom,

I wish my shop was large enough to accomodate something like the photos you attached, but unfortunately it's not. I will have to get creating about how to store my setup wants it's finalized. Thanks very much for the detailed rundown of your sharpening history.

Ned

[Bob Jones 5443]

I've been thinking that surely Tormek will come out with a reversible model so you don't have to turn the whole thing around to use the wheel going in different directions.

Tormek makes a lazy-Susan-type stand for this very purpose.

[John C Cox]

I have spent some time sharpening plane irons and chisels over the years, but historically have been much more of a machine-based woodworker. More recently have decided to study hand tools, and of course this requires conquering Mount Sharpening.

My shop time is limited, and I need to make the most of it.

I was wondering if while attempting to attain skills in freehand sharpening, it also makes sense to get some assistance in the form of a Tormek, Work Sharp, etc. It would allow me to at least initially circumvent some of the tedium of sharpening/flattening.

I'm assuming the machines I mentioned work well, but have no experience with them.

Would love to hear from those who have/had these types of systems.

Thanks in advance for your input --

Ned

Sharpening can be an impossible mountain for people getting into it. The truth is that many of us supplement power tools with hand tools where ir makes sense.

Honestly, the best thing is a good dose of following dogma by writ to get you immediate success. Once you have solid success following a procedure, then, you can experiment with other stuff.

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I recommend you don't start freehand sharpening. It requires too much experience and muscle memory to get good early results. I don't recommend you start with machine sharpening, as it is extremely expensive.

[Tom M King]

Tormek makes a lazy-Susan-type stand for this very purpose.

I know, but nothing about that Mickey Mouse contraption convinces me to spend the money on a Tormek right now. The $150 Wen has a reversible motor.

When I'm set up in one of those 200 year old museum houses, I end up giving a lot of tours to groups. Cleanliness matters so we are almost OCD about it. The washdown hose and spray nozzle on that sink serves multiple purposes, once of which is keeping everything rinsed down clean including under and around the wet grinder. That lazy susan has too many extra levels and places to hold water which is not always just water. Extra work anywhere does not fit the program.

[roger wiegand]

After forty years of practicing freehand sharpening and messing around with machines I got a half hour sharpening lesson from one of the guys at a LN road show event. I acquired three water stones they recommended, a diamond flattening plate for them, and the LV jig (I'm sure the LN one works fine too). For the first time in my life I have consistent, really sharp plane blades and chisels. It's now quick and easy and the cut quality is amazing. Who knew it could be so easy? The trick for me really was having someone help me through it once, hands on, to correct the little things I was doing wrong. I was never going to achieve these kinds of results freehand.

The diamond plate was the only expensive part of getting going with this system (about $175, IIRC), the water stones they recommended were cheap and I already had the LV jig.

The machines can achieve great results, but the setup time is a serious barrier to actually using them. Sharpening is now something I do frequently, almost unconsciously. That never happened with any of the motorized solutions I tried. None of my plane blades or chisels have needed to go to the motorized grinder for five years now. That's now dedicated to turning tools. The coarse water stone cuts so quickly that I haven't seen any particular advantage to hollow grinding blades.

Whatever you do, pick one good system and stick with it until you master it. Unless you have great hand skills and steadiness use a jig to hold the blade.