Domino: Tenon size for cabinet door?

[Michael Drew]

I'm finishing up a display cabinet build (for my whiskey collection). Building doors now. They are roughly 44" tall X 18" wide. 3/8" overlay onto the cabinet. The rails are 3.25" in width and the stiles are 2.75" in width. There is a middle span rail as well, roughly 2/3 from the bottom. I am cutting a rabbit for 1/8" glass panels after I get the doors assembled and flat. Material is cherry, .750" in width.

I was going to use traditional R&S joinery with a router bits set I have for that purpose, but I want shaker style doors, and my bit set is not that style. I figured I'd just cut the pieces for simple loose tenon joinery with my domino. Now I'm wondering what size tenons to use, and if I need to use two each, at each joint, or do I really need that much tenon?? My plan was to use 2 ea 8X50 tenons. I already have my pieces cut to length and marked to do that, but I was watching a DIY show, and the Festool rep (Serg?) used a single 6X40 tenon at each joint. Smaller doors than I'm making, but not by much. And he cut the stile mortice using the middle domino setting. I was planning to cut them all with the tight setting....

For these doors, what size tenon would you use? One per joint, or two? Tight mortice cut on both stile and rail, or just one side?

And for the domino haters of the group, I'm already committed to this form of joinery, so there is no need for loose tenon hate if you feel like adding non-helpful commentary.....

[James Jayko]

2 8x50 feels like way more than necessary, but it ain't gonna hurt you. I'd do one 10mm x 50mm if it were me (which is still probably overkill), but again, two tenons is more glue surface and will be a stronger joint (probably not necessary, but if its worth building its worth overbuilding, right?)

I'd do tight on both sides, and use the integrated pin to give consistent spacing for each mortise.

[mike stenson]

I agree with James. FWIW, other than doing alignment of panels (or making custom dominos) I don't bother with anything other than the tight setting.

[Michael Drew]

Thank you both. What would be more important, the width or length of the tenon?

[Michael Burnside]

Length, usually. The idea is to get long-grain to long-grain adhesion at least from one side. This type of adhesion is as strong as the original wood. The length of the tenon for the other side will generally be grain in the opposite direction and a small % change in width is not likely to increase to a measurable degree. Whenever I have a joint I'm not sure is strong enough with one, I pick the longest tenon first and will double-up two smaller ones rather than one big one. The idea is to make that opposite grain >50% more, making a bigger difference. For the long-grain side I've likely overbuilt by a lot

This method has never failed me yet. I definitely wouldn't say I over-build furniture, but I've not had any fail in moving or normal use or abuse from my kids lol

[Paul F Franklin]

While I think 1 8x40 would be plenty strength wise, with a 3 1/4 rail width, 2 tenons might help with alignment during glue-up if there is any twist at all in the rails. IIWM, I'd probably use two 6x40's. For a few doors it will take maybe 10 minutes extra...

[Michael Burnside]

While I think 1 8x40 would be plenty strength wise, with a 3 1/4 rail width, 2 tenons might help with alignment during glue-up if there is any twist at all in the rails. IIWM, I'd probably use two 6x40's. For a few doors it will take maybe 10 minutes extra...

Good point Paul. I'd probably do a test and see how much twist I get out of 8mm, but I'm likely to do what you suggest as well. As to tight vs. loose, I use tight settings on both sides 99% of the time, but 100% of the time I have layout marks. If something is just a hair off, I can always shave down one side of the domino with a razor blade as needed.

[Michael Drew]

Thanks again. The reason I made the rails 3.25" was to accommodate two tenons to hopefully, prevent twisting. The stiles were sized to accomodate the hinge pocket and a 3/4" rabbit for the glass. (This is my first time making cabinet doors like this)

I have a few drops I can experiment with different sized tenons.

[Derek Cohen]

A major limitation of machine-made joinery is that the settings appear to pre-determine the size or position of the joint. The Domino does this, as does a biscuit joiner and many dovetailing jigs.

I purchased a Domino several years ago to aid in the joinery of a kitchen build. In the end I wound up using one-size-larger dominos - by-passing the 1/3 Rule - to increase rigidity because I was not prepared to design the size of the stretchers to accommodate the size of the dominos.

That is the issue with dominos and biscuits - they limit design. My solution to this is that, where needed, I use the Domino as a mortiser, cut mortices to the length preferred, and make my own domino stock to fit.



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Dwight]

I would custom make wider loose tenons. It is not at all difficult and takes very little time. In a 3 inch wide piece I would make at least a 2 inch wide tenon. If the material is 3/4 thick, I would make a 2 inch wide by 6mm thick tenon. Cutting the mortise is super easy. Just plunge the domino multiple times overlapping. I mark the end domino cuts and then just make additional plunges 5 or 10mm apart depending on the cutter. There are marks on the domino plexiglass piece with the center line that you can use for the overlapping plunges.

I am making my fourth Heirloom Cherry Bed (Woodsmith plans). The design calls for 3.5 inch wide by 1/2 mortise and tenons. So I made 3.5 inch wide by 12 mm loose tenons. The headboard and footboard are glued up now. Went very smoothly.

I cut the tenons a little oversize on either the table saw or bandsaw depending on size and then use my lunchbox planner to get them the right thickness. Then the edges are rounded over on the router table. Much easier and less time consuming than cutting an integral tenon. No shoulders to trim. Just as strong as an integral tenon. I built two of these beds with traditional mortise and tenon joints before I got the Domino XL and am now working on my second with the domino. Quicker and easier with it.

[Jim Becker]

So if your material is .75" thick...about 19mm...8mm tenons may be stouter than you need. Two 6mm tenons would likely be more than sufficient and it keeps you at about that one third ratio. Alternatively use the Domino machine to cut wider 6mm mortises and make custom loose tenons to fit.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

So if your material is .75" thick...about 19mm...8mm tenons may be stouter than you need. Two 6mm tenons would likely be more than sufficient and it keeps you at about that one third ratio. Alternatively use the Domino machine to cut wider 6mm mortises and make custom loose tenons to fit.

I came here to say exactly this. I would not go more than 6mm, as you would be getting into having less meat on either side of the domino than the domino itself. I would do two 6mm if there is room with your routed edge- but I believe I’m reading it’s basically a square edge. If you had a routed ogee or other profile, that leaves less meat on either side of the domino. Hope that makes sense the way I worded it.

One issue with the domino is if you use the height stops, you can’t always get the domino centered on the piece, which is more reason to use the 6mm or even 5mm. Not using the height stops and trying to clamp the height down without the positive stops is tricky because the clamp doesn’t always hold and it slips. (Been there, done that). So, from memory, I’m thinking the stop is set for 20mm thickness. You’re actually at 19mm, so the domino will land a bit off center, so with a 6mm domino you won’t have 6mm+ on either side of the domino. It would be a little less on one side. I for sure wouldn’t use 8mm- I think that would be too thick. Either 5mm or 6mm is plenty of domino and the decision between the two is based on how much meat you have on either side of the domino at your given thickness of material.

[Derek Cohen]

I've shown this before, a template I use to position the Domino ..







If you want square ends, use a hollow chisel ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Kessler]

I'd go for a single 8x50 tenon per joint. It provides ample strength for the size of your doors.

[Michael Drew]

I appreciate the input everyone. Thank you for your time.

I've been making up domino rules as I go along ever since I bought the machine three years ago. I just kinda look at the work piece and go with whatever seems to make most practical sense. Bases on the range of input I've gotten so far, I don't think I'm the only one who takes this approach.

I have not routed the edges, at least not yet. I was planning to do that after the door frames are built. Not real sure what profile I'm going with, or if I'm going to just leave the edges square. In retrospect, I should have just bought a rail and stile kit for shaker doors.

I never have thought about making my own tenons. I just get a box of Taytool tenon's when I run low on a particular size. They seem pretty cheap to me.... But, I do like the idea of making different tenons with different wood species. Some through tenons with contrasting wood colors might look cool in some applications.

I only have the smaller machine. Have not really needed larger mortices than 10mm. I may end up buying the larger tool one of these days.

I'll mess around with one and two tenons on a piece of scrap wood. Stick with 6mm. I do want to build these doors to hold up for a couple decades. AT this point in the game, might as well over build than do 'just enough'.....