All table saws to be SawStops?

[Rod Sheridan]

I don't have a lot to contribute here other than the idea that understanding best practice is one way to avoid accidents. I teach beginner woodworking and teach that it's important to understand best practices and avoid ignoring those practices. Mainly I agree with Mark and believe that he is making this point in that there is no substitute for application of best practice.

As example, its best to avoid sweeping dust off your machine tables when the machine is running. If you ignore that best practice then you run an exceptionally high risk.

I tend to like safety gear, but I don't rely upon it as a primary measure to prevent injury. It's good to have some redundancies, for that reason I maintain guarding and have the necessary 'oh shit' switch on every piece of equipment. I also prioritize keeping things in good working order so that you aren't running into easily avoided unexpected issues when running things.

I don't desire to work in the dark dusty past with exposed open gearing or belts, but I also don't feel the need to have government continuously apply its force to everything. As example, the EU has banned the use of dado blades, yet I've used them for years. I'm not sure how they are more dangerous than a grooving tool. There needs to be a better balance struck here as they're often delving into the land of the arbitrary or where consumer choices will guide the path.

My understanding is that saw blades in the EU have to be guarded in use and blade braking has to occur in 10 seconds or less, regardless of blade mass.

Dado cutters aren’t banned in the EU, they’re just not as common as they are here.

Regards, Rod

[Alan Lightstone]

My understanding is that saw blades in the EU have to be guarded in use and blade braking has to occur in 10 seconds or less, regardless of blade mass.

Dado cutters aren’t banned in the EU, they’re just not as common as they are here.

Regards, Rod

I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

[Justin Rapp]

I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

The interesting thing about that dado nut from woodpecker is it's actually just not needed, at least on sawstop based on the owners manual. The purpose of the washer is mostly to help give the blade stability, but when you stack blades, especially a dado where you have 2+ chippers sandwiched between the primary blades, you already have stability. It's the reverse process where you add a blade stabilizer plate on a thin kerf blade. The entire sawstop community, and I suspect other saw brand users have been using dado blades for years without the need for this washer/nut from woodpecker.

As much as I am a fan of most woodpecker tools and devices, this one isn't getting added to future woodpecker orders.

[Lee Schierer]

I just got an ad for one my by CMT that is supposedly the first dado set approved for use in the EU since the new regulations:

CMT Orange 8" Locked Dado Pro Blade Set, 12 teeth, FTG+ATB Grind Kerf 230.312.08 (DCE)


Interesting. I had never heard of the rule. Not sure why this one is acceptable, and totally unclear why a "locked set" is important.

Woodpeckers is now selling a dado nut that allows the full 3/4" dado blade set to be used on a Sawstop. https://www.woodpeck.com/dado-nut-sawstop.html

It's interesting.

From the photo on their ad it shows that they have removed a lot of weight from the blades and the chippers. The reduced mass would cause the set to stop spinning much quicker.
Screenshot 2024-02-03 113442.jpg

[Doug Garson]

This video explains why the new CMT is approved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGdbK22Y56g

[Jerome Stanek]

I agree with most of what you said in this post except this part. In my 50 odd years in this hobby, I've had a few kickbacks and I don't recall any of them happening slowly. I agree, in each case I made a mistake and there may have been some clues I missed but the kickback itself happened so fast that there was no way to react and avoid it.

And the Saw Stop will not do anything about this. Shop I used to work at has 2 Saw Stops and they still have kick backs

[Warren Lake]

the sawstop might not stop the kick back but if the kick back pulls the owner back into the blade then its done its job. Likely be good to define kick backs. Some stuff will load up with warning and fight you. Other stuff bang blazing fast.

Ripping material on a saw and having it load it may tension release and start to push back but you get lots of warning, odd time a crack and it splits. I dont consider those rips of long material kick backs. Past mostly just lifted off when I hear it starting to load up then back in.

They taught us to joint an edge before rough rip but enough times saved time skipped that step and just did the rough rip crown side to the fence guesstimating change from ripping.

[Larry Frank]

I often hear the argument that the Sawstop will not stop kickbacks. I completely agree and using a riving knife is a great idea.

I have looked at the Sawstop ads and literature and nowhere did I find anything that says it prevents kickbacks. However, if your hand gets knocked into the blade, it will greatly minimize any blade contact injury.

[Brian Holcombe]

Interesting detail about the EU rule. I use an Amana tool stack that has each blade the full diameter rather than those small winged types. The winged type has given me pause for that reason.

[David Dille]

Ha, first time poster here.

I basically got run off from LUMBERJOCKS forum for posting a link to that really well done and non-bias video. Pounded on by the few SawStop owners. I felt so bad about it, I talked to my wife, who is much more distanced from woodworking than I. She said that it sounded like SawStop might be sponsoring the forum, under the table, after she read some of the comments sent my way. I won’t make the same mistake on this forum.

I certainly agree with you. Sawstop saws, I’ve used one and really checked them out at the Woodcraft store, are nice saws but no better than the others like Harvey, Grizzly, Bailey, Laguna or Powermatic, they just have much better PR and appear to use scare tactics to sell their saws.

[David Dille]

I do whitewater rafting and have done, so for years. Close calls and even a couple of deaths on the rivers. I don’t think anyone is arguing that an additional safety device might not be a good thing BUT it’s not the end all solution. The end all solution in the wood shop would to not ever be in the wood shop. One device that may save some one’s fingers on one tool is not going to make a significant difference to the entire population. If you had to spend an extra $1500 on each and every tool that you could injure yourself with, including sharp chisels, could you even afford to have a wood shop? It wouldn’t be worth it to me. I’ve never worked in a commercial wood shop but have spent 25+ in high tech manufacturing, working for companies that had extremely rigid safety processes and every safety add on for tools that you can imagine. Workers still got hurt and killed. Technologies failed, people had a moment of distraction or complacency and bang! Firearms, vehicles, sports, ladders, roofs, trees, water, weather and yes tools, will all kill or maim. You can’t fix stupid and what a horrible, boring world to live in where you’re mandated to just end up sitting on you mandatorily safe couch that you had to buy from the one and only one company because the other companies couldn’t provide a couch that was as safe as theirs. Yes, that’s a really stupid statement to think that would ever happen but that is exactly what SawStop wants to do, force you to buy their product through mandated legislation. THIS is my only objection to SawStop. This discussion is not about whether putting a safety feature on a saw is good, bad or indifferent, it’s about having a choice. If SawStop gets it’s way, even SawStop owners will be affected in their pocketbook because we all know what happens when you can only buy from one company. Will they be successful? I don’t know but for myself, I don’t want to support a company that is trying to take away my ability to make that decision. Would it be a tragedy in my life, no. I would just sell my tools and move onto some other hobby. My point to this is that we should all have a choice, that’s why there are anti trust laws. It’s not about safety, so let’s quit arguing safety. Some hard core SawStop owners want you to think it is about safety, nope, it’s about being able to make a choice for yourself. If Bosch could have continued their injury mitigation device, I would buy it and install it on my saw. They didn’t because ONE of their devices, the one that drops the blade, was too close to the SawStop patent, not identical, but close enough that they spent 4 years in court before bagging it. Sawstop doesn’t care about your safety, just forcing you to buy their saw. Their market share continues to decrease because people are making a choice to buy other saws. Other, or the same hard core owners say, wait until it happens, then I’ll believe. Well, it will be too late then, won’t it?

Sorry for my ramble but it's not about safety and I’m tired of SawStop die hards turning it toward that. It’s about freedom of choice.

[Tom Trees]

Forgetting about the crown guard, which is a must, for the minute....
but do they sell a sliding fence attachment for those Sawstops,
or have they figured that they could sell more saws, by folks having a fright getting kickbacks?

Not to take away from the brand, as at least they have a "true" riving knife, which is a must also, obviously.
Be interested to see if they, or anyone makes the necessary attachment for the fence, another must have
which also provides the low profile setting for use with crown guard.

Be a nice earner for a business to provide such a fence, if not.
i.e by UK HSE requirements, as Roy demonstrates below...
All these things, along with a pair of 450mm long push sticks being absolutely necessary across the pond.

Here's the fence I mentioned
Screenshot-2023-7-4 Safe Wood Machining by Roy Sutton.jpg
And not forgetting you folks overseas like to use your saws for grooving, which requires Shaw guards also
Screenshot-2022-9-30 Safe Wood Machining by Roy Sutton - YouTube(1).jpg

Not seen anyone doing this on those machines, though presumably at least on some of the Sawstops,
one has an option to tap holes into the fence?

If not possible, then they should revise their fence design.

I've recently posted 20 links from a UK forum, which is a whole lot more info than you'd find elsewhere,
should one be "on the fence" regarding safe use, of even a Sawstop, or indeed other machine, which comes with a real riving knife, that is.
No exceptions regarding safety, no matter how fond of those dangerous vintage machines some might be, (we never had such neglectful designs here)

All the best
Tom

[mike stenson]

I haven't seen a sliding fence offered by an American company since the Unifence, which isn't marketed anymore. It's a shame, I really do like mine.

[David Dille]

Respectfully. I don’t know of any private shop that could afford their $10,000+ add on. Just not apples to apples.

[Scott Graham]

I’ve found that most “accidents” are caused by preventable errors/actions. I operate a motorcycle, sometimes without a helmet. I know the risk and I’m glad the decision is mine to make. As far as table saws, most injuries are from kickbacks and most kickbacks are from operator error. Not saying the SawStop technology is a bad thing just that it should be the operator’s choice. That being said, I just ordered a 4 hp Alpha Table Saw from Harvey and look forward to many years of safe operation.