All table saws to be SawStops?

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Michael, If you want to complete a woodwork project without error, like say a piece of furniture, do you believe that it can be done? It may not be perfect, but it can be done to the best that you can do and error free, that's what i believe.
Once you have learned your trade, and you know how to make stuff, the rest is developing a process to avoid errors, then making the commitment and having the discipline to follow each step of the process. Errors happen when you skip steps, because you forget or are in a hurry and don't have the discipline to follow each step. Everyone has accidents and make mistakes, made lots myself, mostly from not following procedure, not checking and verifying.

Dressing and cutting sticks of wood to size is not complicated. Making a square wooden frame is not difficult. There are relationships to understand, and a process to follow to assure that it is straight, square the correct size, the left is on the left, the right is on the right, the top is on the top, and the bottom is on the bottom, etc. that's not magic or luck, it is process, paint by numbers. To get it to work, you have to do each step of the process. It is simply project management, and as far as I can see it would probably be the same for most projects in most industries and professions. Just like handling wood on a jointer, you analyze and develop a process, where to put your fingers and where not to. If you use a jointer and don't have a set process or deviate from it, you have a good chance of getting hurt. So my rants are usually about people developing safe working habits. I have never suggested that I don't make mistakes, or in anyway berated people for using safety devices, I have pointed out that safety devices alone wont keep you safe, only that knowledge and good working habits give you the best chance of avoiding errors and accidents.

They are just my opinions based on my experience and may or may not be of any value, but they are there for consideration if anyone is interested.

Feel free to say whatever you want to me, I am a big boy and I can take.
Give me your opinions or shoot down mine, its all good, maybe stuff to be learned from for the common good.

Of course you can trip, or drop the wood on the saw, or a carbide tooth can come loose and hit you in the face, or your cat could jump on the saw.

Respectfully this is absolute, unsubstantiated nonsense. Accidents happen for a multitude of reasons, safety devices notwithstanding. That’s why they call them accidents. There isn’t a soul on this forum, myself included, that is always in perfect form and never makes mistakes.

[Rod Sheridan]

This whole safety mandate on table saws is a bit of a double-edged sword, isn't it? On one hand, the SawStop technology is proven to save fingers, and that's fantastic. On the other hand, it feels like we might be headed towards a one-size-fits-all scenario. I love having choices in brands and features, but safety is paramount. It's a tough call, and I hope there's room for innovation without monopoly.

Hi Derek, I see no reason why safety features would reduce the number of brands or features.

We already have 4 manufacturers with active blade braking, the number will only increase with time.

Regards, Rod

[Mark Hennebury]

From an article in the local news last year.

Hospital secrets: They don't tell the deadly mistakes they keep making

I have heard this a number if times now but have not read any documentation for it. I do not think you are correct but would really like to see the backing for the statement

[Larry Frank]

I was referring to the comment that more Sawstop users make mistakes than non Sawstop users.

I notice that you seem to have something against surgeons based your comments. I would guess that is because of your accident.

[Todd Zucker]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Mark, I do get your point. However, some of us have no formal training in woodworking and read books and articles and watch YT to learn a hobby we enjoy (which is not ideal). For us, there are sometimes unexpected events, probably because we do not know all of the proper procedures, or the risks, even if we have studied the methods in available resources. An example is EdwardÂ’s recent post of someone cross cutting a long piece on a table saw using both the fence and the miter gauge. That came from a reputable source but might have produced an unexpected result for someone who did not understand the physics. I see videos from experienced woodworkers using gloves around spinning blades, and although it looks wrong to me, I really donÂ’t know if it is improper technique. I havenÂ’t seen the video on that subject. I think the safety devices are geared toward protecting the inexperienced. If an experienced operator decides to remove a guard for the sake of efficiency, that is an informed decision, but it is nice to have the guard in place to begin with for someone who might not understand the risk.

[Mark Hennebury]

1000 pardons, my mistake. I just threw that out there. just a guess. Would be nice to have some real data, why I asked for a hand ( finger) count of jointer users, to get some facts.

I was referring to the comment that more Sawstop users make mistakes than non Sawstop users.

I notice that you seem to have something against surgeons based your comments. I would guess that is because of your accident.

[Mark Hennebury]

Todd,
My training was school shop class, books, magazines and experimenting.
In my opinion, if you want to be safe and do woodworking, spend most of your time in the shop, not on the internet.
You can learn a lot with an inquisitive mind.
Take a few different pieces of wood and really look at it, write a review of it, everything that you can list to describe it. it's weight, it's smell. it's color it's feel, how the light effects it from different angles, describe the color and texture and cell structure and distribution and the grain patterns. Describe it so that someone 1000miles away on the phone knows exactly what it is like. then do that for different woods. The chop it up and break it and bed it and split it, cut it with a sharp chisel and a dull one, cut it from every different angle and approach that you can, saw it, smash it with a hammer on different surfaces, take thin boards and wet on side, experiment, observe, ask questions, listen to the answers. you will come to know wood and how to work with it. Start with hand tools, then try to understand that power tools are and how they work with wood, look at jointers, planers and table saws etc, and try to understand how and why they work the way they do. Look for the relationship between parts and you will understand marking out, and machine setup. Don't measure, transfer. Do this and you wont need to ask what saw tooth works, you will know. Do this and you can work with precision and accuracy Do this at the beginning and you have the tools to work wood ...safely for the rest of your life.

Turn your mind around to see what's in front of your eyes, not what's in your head.

Woodworking is easy and simple, don't make it difficult.


[QUOTE=Todd Zucker;3298619]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Mark, I do get your point. However, some of us have no formal training in woodworking and read books and articles and watch YT to learn a hobby we enjoy (which is not ideal). For us, there are sometimes unexpected events, probably because we do not know all of the proper procedures, or the risks, even if we have studied the methods in available resources. An example is EdwardÂ’s recent post of someone cross cutting a long piece on a table saw using both the fence and the miter gauge. That came from a reputable source but might have produced an unexpected result for someone who did not understand the physics. I see videos from experienced woodworkers using gloves around spinning blades, and although it looks wrong to me, I really donÂ’t know if it is improper technique. I havenÂ’t seen the video on that subject. I think the safety devices are geared toward protecting the inexperienced. If an experienced operator decides to remove a guard for the sake of efficiency, that is an informed decision, but it is nice to have the guard in place to begin with for someone who might not understand the risk.

[Lee Schierer]

I was taught to use a table saw in school. The teacher showed us all the parts of the saw and how to use them. One important thing he taught us was to review what you were going to do standing at the saw with the saw set up to make the cut you intend to make. Then with the saw turned off, walk through the motions you would do to make the cut. Review each step for potential danger, binding, kickback, where will the cut off go, where are your hands during the process and if anything makes you unsure or appears to get body parts too close to the blade, stop and find another way to do it.

Accidents happen when we fail to take those steps and pay attention to that small voice in your head that says you might get hurt doing this. All the safety devices in the world won't stop a dumb mistake, but they can and do prevent more serious injuries.

Most videos I've watched on the internet don't talk much about safety and some out right ignore it.

[jack duren]

Here is a true story.. I worked for a small cabinet company in Buckner, Missouri called Blystone Cabinets owned by Jason Blystone. Rick Yates who worked there roughly 20 years ran into me at store. Now I had worked there for two years before and ran into Rick at the store two years later. Rick was telling me how Mike Blystone, Jason’s brother laughed at me several time after I left for being stupid enough to get my hand in the table saw. Rick informed me that Mike was ripping oak on the table saw and the board jumped up and Mike put his hand on top of the board to push it down, but was on top of the blade..


I don’t think his injury is funny,but don’t laugh at others who have been hurt..

[Thomas Pender]

Some observations:
1. When I was hearing the SawStop v. Bosch case years ago, unchallenged testimony established the table saw industry was worth about $400M per year in the US, but caused $2 Billion in injuries every year. Yikes!! I believe Bosch appreciated this and wanted to sell and market a safer job site product.
2. I found Bosch had infringed a limited number of patent claims and had not infringed at least one other - the chemical firing mechanism by Bosch did not infringe if memory serves. Both parties were represented by extremely expensive and able legal talent and they all did a great job. The hearing room, which is large, was filled with lawyers and before the hearing started I disclosed I owned many very good Bosch tools, but alas, no SawStop yet. (I bought by SawStop 3 hp PCS with the 52” table later.). I got the strong feeling Bosch wanted to win -
3. I liked Dr. Gass and found him to be a credible witness. His invention is close to genius (firing off of electrical potential of human bodies) and he tried to market it to others but found no realistic takers.
4. I am personally glad my PCS fired last year when I stupidly set my Incra miter in the wrong direction and it just barely nicked the blade and the brake fired and did not send it back at me. Forest fixed my blade and I bought a new brake. Let me say the cost of a new brake is a pretty good motivator to be careful.
5. Local Co-Op hardware store out here sells SawStops - all the schools in our County have them now. BTW - I got a real bargain on the delivery - they delivered the thing to my shop for free.
6. Based upon my knowledge and experience action by the CPSC is long overdue.

[Paul Koenigs]

I think this is a key point. Going back to the beginning of the story, Gass supposedly offered to license the tech to companies after he first invented it. They all said no, likely because they didn't think it added any real value in the context of selling more saws.

One of the reasons this conversation gets hashed out every 6 months is because those companies were wrong. The safety feature did offer value when put on an otherwise solid saw.

Pappa Griz said that Gass wanted a lot of money for the license. I forget the exact dollar amount, but it was excessive.
If a Griz saw plus Gass's royalty made the Griz saw at a comparable or greater expense to Sawstop, Griz would struggle to sell saws.
Point is, it's not as if Gass was only asking for a couple hundred of dollars.. it was a lot more than that.
Pappa Griz made him a counter offer. Gass said no.
So let's not pretend that Gass was being concerned about safety. It was a big money grab.

[Edwin Santos]

The SawStop story is a long, winding road.

I think what riled a lot of the woodworking community was when Gass, back in 2003 after unsuccessful attempts to license the tech to saw manufacturers, petitioned the federal government (Consumer Product Safety Commission) to mandate the technology. If that rule had been enacted, which it nearly was, every table saw sold in the US would have required the SawStop technology, or "something similar".

Keep in mind, Gass didn't hold just one patent for the SawStop blade brake, he owned a complex web of more than 60 patents which he knew how to structure since he is a patent attorney himself. Therefore, it would have been difficult if not impossible for any manufacturer to comply with the rules and do so on their own (i.e. provide something similar) without SawStop. I think the expression is "cornering the market".
In the end, due in part to an intense industry lobbying effort, the SawStop mandate never came to be, but it came quite close.

The SawStop saw is a really good product, and increased table saw safety is a worthy cause. The resentment from the woodworking community had more to do with the tactics.


EDIT: If we're getting close to the end of the SawStop patents, then depending on the enactment date, CPSC action at this time might not create a single channel monopoly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Delta has been making blade guards for their saws since the mid 1930's, CPSC was formed in 1972.

Delta were a quarter century behind.

Altendorf introduced the riving knife and crown guard in 1904

Regards, Rod

[Steve Demuth]

My guess would be that most accidents have nothing to do with the unexpected. My guess is that they have more to do with not following procedure. That is not a mistake. That is a lack of discipline, arrogance, complacency, whatever.

Four decades of work without "accident" means that someone has developed good working practice and the discipline to follow it. It doesn't mean that you have not encountered problems, but that you have been prepared and able to deal with them.

Surgeons do a few hours of surgery and think they are gods.

Furniture makers often build pieces of furniture that have hundreds of parts, tens of thousands of operations and take months to complete, every part must fit within a few thousandths of an inch. That requires planning, it requires error checking and confirmation at each step of he way to ensure that errors are not carried over to the next operation. It requires a lack of arrogance, you cant run on assumptions, you have to do each set-up to be perfect, then assume that it's not, and check and verify, and make any adjustments before moving on to the next one. That is how you get a complex job done.

I offered to teach the surgeons at my hospital after they did my surgery, because it was quite apparent that they wouldn't make it as furniture-makers.

I'm sure you're right that most injuries are due to someone doing something in way they shouldn't - often because they don't know better, sometimes because they think they're smarter than the physics of the saw, and sometimes because people do sometimes make mistakes even when they know the right way and are conscientious.

But I really don't know why any of that matters. Even if 99.9% of table saw injuries could have been avoided with more training and better attention to proper procedure, the reality is that they are still happening. If blade stopping tech can prevent 80% of those injuries from being serious, without serious impairing the use of the tool - and it's pretty clear that it can - then it's a good addition to the tool. Even if 10% of the people who use table saws are so competent and conscientious that they will never be injured in a lifetime of work, the other 90% are still at risk.

[Edward Weber]

I'm sure you're right that most injuries are due to someone doing something in way they shouldn't - often because they don't know better, sometimes because they think they're smarter than the physics of the saw, and sometimes because people do sometimes make mistakes even when they know the right way and are conscientious.

But I really don't know why any of that matters. Even if 99.9% of table saw injuries could have been avoided with more training and better attention to proper procedure, the reality is that they are still happening. If blade stopping tech can prevent 80% of those injuries from being serious, without serious impairing the use of the tool - and it's pretty clear that it can - then it's a good addition to the tool. Even if 10% of the people who use table saws are so competent and conscientious that they will never be injured in a lifetime of work, the other 90% are still at risk.

The point isn't, should there be tech to help avoid injuries.
The point is, should there only be SawStop tech on saws to avoid injuries.

SS is trying to litigate, again, still, that their tech should be the only AIM safety device.