The Dummy's Guide to European Bandsaw Setup

[Dave Sabo]

I have a 2002/3 ish Laguna 18" Italian saw here in Katy. Only have about 10" resaw capacity under the guides. Would this vintage have been from the Centauro lineup?

Laguna , to my knowledge, never sourced from Centauro.

The LT saws have traditionally been made by ACM like Erik mentioned. Early on, they sourced a few of the smaller saws from Meber, but the arrangement was short lived.

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

[Tom Trees]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

Sounds like "insufficient flywheel seal convexity" to me, (as per the Centauro SP manual.)
...or should I say a "Classico" example of tires which have withstood the test of time........ here's wishing you a happy new year Bob!

If you dress your tires flat like I did, or indeed wear off the apex of the crown by disregarding or simply not knowing where the apex is,
whilst running narrow blades, then that will be the result.

No beam tension from the blade is what you could call it, well it's something like where both sides of the fence can meet,
though you could just call a spade a spade.
Those tires dressed like so, is a sure recipe for blade set compression, and that's counting running wider blades with teeth, strictly off the edge as per suggestions, the blade will be damaged with only a few cuts done.
Likewise, tracking narrow blades with teeth on the tire, will also do the same.
(I'd used that blade for the last tire dressing attempts, so those few test runs, no cutting involved, were enough to compress the set on this blade)

There's also some interesting things to note here, likely more than I can think of, but to mention a few things...
along with absolutely no beam tension whatsoever, none, zilch!
There's also the evidence of spelching on the underside of the cut, if you see that, then running standard blades might prove to be an expense a new user might not have accounted for, same deal with an m42 blade which didn't seem any different in that regards to me.

Not sure if there's much point in discussing some of the points like a clear pinged note from the pluck test,
Something which might be quite revealing, what I can't achieve now, since I haven't much rubber to play with anymore, I didn't get to experiment.
Having dressed these tires about a dozen times, it was just about possible to get the crowned profile on the rubber,
Which would be plain sailing now for me after learning my lessons.

I reckon there might be something into hearing a clear note, like a crisp tire apex, which one simply cannot discount the possible importance of, after seeing
how bad one could possibly make their saw run, and completely change matters with a bit of tire dressing.

https://youtu.be/UosmDQxn09c?si=VwzLuvxZc5rkm1Wn


No need for a new thrust guide anymore, me old welded one will do fine.

All the best
Happy new year
Tom

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

What I meant to say was that I’ve never been happy with the euro guides and that I don’t have any experience with other guides (except on a delta 14” saw).

[Mick Simon]

Thanks very much for taking the time to share your insights, Erik. Very informative.

[Erik Loza]

Erik,
Who made Agazzani’s? And what would make an upper thrust bearing wear out faster than the lower? I’ve really been super happy with the euro guides but I don’t experience with many others.
Thanks! Jeff

Jeff, Agazzani made Agazzani! I believe Eagle Tools in SoCal was the lone US distributor. I heard that one of the German classical machine companies took over distribution right years ago but as far as I know, you can't actually buy an Agazzani any longer.

To answer your thrust bearing question, the chief culprit that I witnessed behind excessive thrust bearing wear was setting that bearing too close to the back edge of the blade. The typical scenario would be resawing with a wide blade, the blade gets forced into the bearing, and you then would then hear all sorts of metallic screeching. If this continues, it ends up scarring the face of the bearing. I vividly remember a gentleman bringing in the entire guide head from his MM16, back in the Minimax USA days. The thrust bearing had turned blue, looked like somebody gone after it with a sawzall, and was literally frozen inside its housing.

So, how do we solve this? First is to obviously set the thrust bearing farther back. I'm assuming blade greater than 3/4" in width? "If" doing this hurts cutting performance, I would wonder if you really have enough tension in that blade. The other scenario is that the tension is correct but the blade is dull. This forces you to push harder during the cut, which can drive the blade into the thrust bearing. We would see this with "one-blade owners": Still using the blade that came with their machine after thousands of board-feet.

Lastly, if you're unhappy with Euro guides, have you considered ceramics? I really didn't have much first-hand experience with them until coming back aboard with Felder, where they are standard equipment. Personally, I don't find them "better" than Euro guides but they are a lot more forgiving, since you can't really destroy ceramic. In your case, I might consider replacing the thrust bearings with Space Age ceramics: https://www.spaceageceramics.com/pro...bearing-pin-2/

Hope this helps!

Thanks very much for taking the time to share your insights, Erik. Very informative.

Thank you, Mick!

[Warren Lake]

blade should not contact the rear bearing unless you are cutting. saw running no cutting the rear bearing should not be in contact and not moving.

Seen it enough bearings or guides set up way too high. Its in enough you tubes. The stuff is there to support the blade near where you are cutting not half a mile away.

[Erik Loza]

Warren, I have never found it beneficial to have the guides near the blade for any type of straight-line cutting with wider blades. To the contrary, setting the guides too close was a very common source of poor cutting performance among our customers. I used to do a demo of short veneer-cutting with an MM16, with the guides completely off the machine because guys at trade shows just couldn't believe it could be done. Again, my observations.

Erik

[Warren Lake]

no the guides are support for the blade when its working, having them far away only works against you. It will be worse as the blades get smaller. That makes no sense.

It also is related to how you work. Everyone works different and pushes more or less than others.

[lou Brava]

Nice write up Erik, can you enlighten me (a virtual novice compared to your experience) on what's the difference is in a "Euro" saw set up as opposed to a comparable saw made in some other land. I resaw with a Laguna SUV, ceramic guides using a a Resaw King 3/4 & 1" with a .024 backer, no tension gauge, set blade in center of tires or just slightly forward & it works well. The only thing I see different is on how you set guides. If your saw is tracking right wouldn't your guide set up hold true for any BS ? I'm going to try it.
I've seen/read different ways to set up a BS some experts say blade center, coplanar wheels, use a tension gauge, others say blade teeth forward on tire, don't worry about coplanar, don't use a tension gauge & a mix and match of all that advice. I guess what what I'm saying is isn't a BS a BS & a set up no matter what method you use would transfer from 1 machine to the next ?

[Jeff Bartley]

Erik,

Thank you for the advise, I imagine my issue is a combination of a dull blade and setting the bearing too close. I really need to set up a sharpening system on the saw so I can touch up blades. I should really know better than to run a dull blade!

For what’s it worth (to everyone setting up a flat tired saw) mine is an Agazzani B-24, blades always set with the teeth just off the edge of the top wheel and with a new blade it runs like a scalded cat.

This reminds me that I need to order blades……and a set of ceramic thrust bearings.

[Erik Loza]

Jeff, Agazzani’s have probably the nicest fit and finish of any Italian saw. I have no way to prove this but always felt like Minimax modeled the S45N bandsaw after an Agazzani.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

Nice write up Erik, can you enlighten me (a virtual novice compared to your experience) on what's the difference is in a "Euro" saw set up as opposed to a comparable saw made in some other land. I resaw with a Laguna SUV, ceramic guides using a a Resaw King 3/4 & 1" with a .024 backer, no tension gauge, set blade in center of tires or just slightly forward & it works well. The only thing I see different is on how you set guides. If your saw is tracking right wouldn't your guide set up hold true for any BS ? I'm going to try it.
I've seen/read different ways to set up a BS some experts say blade center, coplanar wheels, use a tension gauge, others say blade teeth forward on tire, don't worry about coplanar, don't use a tension gauge & a mix and match of all that advice. I guess what what I'm saying is isn't a BS a BS & a set up no matter what method you use would transfer from 1 machine to the next ?

Lou, thanks and great questions. Aside from overall build quality, these are the two main differences that really caused buyers to want to step up:

1.) Frame strength as it relates to being able to put adequate tension into wider, exotic metal blades like carbides. A common complaint I heard from buyers was that they were trying to effectively use a 1” blade (any alloy, not just carbide) on a smaller saw and just get it cut satisfactorily. This was usually because the machine frame would start to flex before the blade came into the PSI range that it wanted in order to cut properly. With Euro saws, the frames are strong enough that you would snap the blade before the machine starts to complain.

2). The second advantage is having truly flat wheels, which makes blade tracking a breeze. For the life of me, I have no idea why bandsaw manufacturers still manufacture machines with crowned tires. Could it be because the mass-produced Asian machines are just cranking out clones of the next guy’s saw, without any real user insight? No clue but I will die on the “flat tires are best” hill. My dad had a Sears 12” bandsaw in his shop before he passed away. I was trying to help him out with some general maintenance and thought, “Oh, let me just put a fresh blade on his saw”. After about 15 minutes of trying to get this 1/4” blade to stay in the same spot on both wheels, I gave up. Blade tracking on a Euro machine is usually a 30-second affair. I’ve rebuilt a number of Centauros from the frame, up, and never needed to check co-planarity of the wheels. I mean, if you wanted to be really an*l, I guess but “not” checking never seemed to hurt cutting performance, so why create more work for yourself?

So, to answer your real question, “yes”, a bandsaw is still just a bandsaw but, due to some general and some very specific design differences, the Euro machines are much more flexible in terms of their application as well as being quicker and easier to set up. Does that answer make sense?

Erik

[Brian Holcombe]

I assume the majority of the aversion to checking co-planar has more to do with trying to keep brand new users from actually adjusting the lower wheel factory setting (which is likely very wise to have them avoid) more than anything else.

To me, it makes sense to check and assure that there is minimal axial load on the bearings and also that the saw is not applying a twist to the blade.

I don't recall exactly how I did this, but I believe it involved clamping a straight edge across each wheel and bridging a level across both straight edges, when they are parallel on x and y axis, but I may have done it with two levels and checked across both of them to sight them like a set of winding sticks.

This is perhaps best left for a saw that has been restored or repaired, or is running horribly, rather than something that is running well. My saw's bearings died very early so to me it was worth checking and I discovered them to be out of alignment enough that I decided to improve the settings.

For guides, I don't think it has been made explicit, but in my experience having them utilize the front portion of the guide (so that they can rotate if the saw blade touches them) has been best, Seems like that is in agreement with what you wrote.

[Tom Trees]

I assume the majority of the aversion to checking co-planar has more to do with trying to keep brand new users from actually adjusting the lower wheel factory setting .

Worth noting, if the faces of the wheels aren't dressed to within tolerance for doing so, then the straight edge could read anything.
I've mentioned earlier, that a 0.5mm discrepancy can show a 4mm variance, regarding projection of the beam.

There's not many machines out there which feature faced wheels, I presumed the tool marks on my wheels suggested such,
but it's likely not that accurate on any wheel machined the same, (nearly all from what I've seen)
and the scribing beam will tell when they are accurate enough to use for checking co-planar or alignment thereafter.
Much easier and not misleading like my other attempts at this.

Folks mentioning all this isn't necessary, as the wheels don't need to be aligned on either axis, but concerning the east/west adjustments,
fail to mention how much of a misalignment between the upper wheel and the motor is tolerable.
(non adjustable, unless you've got a foot mount motor, or adjustable mounting plate for the flange mount)

I've came across a few instances of this being very evident, from machines what didn't fall off a truck.
It's testament to the design and quality of the parts really, especially when you consider some like mine which had a hard life,
and no sort of troubleshooting guide available, apart from the... is it better or worse, clueless adjustments mentioned on some manuals.

All the best
Tom