No bothers Mike, it's the best thread on info regarding the make up of blades you'll likely find anywhere,
Where did Van go to anyways, and was he some kind of secret agent bandsaw spy?
Only messin
Good luck with the new machine
Tom
Member
No bothers Mike, it's the best thread on info regarding the make up of blades you'll likely find anywhere,
Where did Van go to anyways, and was he some kind of secret agent bandsaw spy?
Only messin
Good luck with the new machine
Tom
Contributor
Originally Posted by Tom Trees
Machine mass is irrelevant to anything other than damping vibrations. Whether or not a BS can tension a blade is determined by the stiffness of its frame, nothing more.
But I agree that a 1" blade is a better choice though. There's no benefit of a wider, thicker blade for a hobby user, even if the machine can put enough tension on it.
John
Member
That's an old book where those hymn notes are coming from John,
Perhaps some more light reading from the Van might bring you up to speed on why the Italian's surpassed their competitors,
building "lightweight" machines made from sheet metal with proper cast iron wheels, (spoked at the time)
The Centauro CO being the blueprint of modern bandsaw design, with no cost cutting exceptions made like you see on the rest of the machines today,
whilst the obvious principal regarding this design is for vibration dampness, not solved by adding weight, but by alignment.
This is why the Italian's became the leaders in the business, good manufacturing all starts with good design, and so fourth...
Van has a few posts on the rest, should one care to look.
And since then, there's not really been much difference in chassis design concerning stiffness, (discounting various Far Eastern designs)
some little changes here and there yes,
but I've not see massive changes whilst studying most of the era's of such machines, hence my comment regarding frame stiffness and the weight of the machine
being a darn good judge of that.
Which I guess is where someone like Van comes into play, who's perhaps gone and measured the deflection of near every machine worth talking about on the market,
with various blades and whatnot, to come to the same conclusion as this.
Not to turn up ones nose from everyone else's documentation either, regarding the results they can achieve with a given blade & machine,
what y'all can see for yerselves here, on what most likely has the single biggest resource regarding documentation one could encounter,
behind that Creeker's paywall, what's just too tall for me peek over.
So you'll have to forgive me pointing out the insouciance regarding the design of anything else but the saws featuring foot mounted motors,
i.e the Centauro/Minimax machines,
what feature adjustability for it to be possible to align with the upper bandwheel.
Now, lots of folks here may roll their eyes up to heaven on that one, but they're not able to explain the collection of machines around the world
with the cowboy antics regarding that lower wheel, which you can't un-see once the doors are opened.
All the best
Tom
Last edited by Tom Trees; 12-02-2023 at 3:56 PM.
Contributor
You keep harping on "foot mounted motors on Centauro saws" but as a former owner of a 2006 Centauro (Mini-Max) 20" saw I can say with 100% authority you are wrong Tom. The motors on these saws are face mounted to the chassis of the saw. With slotted holes to allow belt tightening. The lower wheel is mounted on a fully adjustable stub spindle and belt driven.
Contributor
Correct. The contemporary Centauros definitely each have their own “harmonic” when running. For example, an MM16 can create enough tension to snap a brand-new 1.0” Lenox Tri-Master (don’t ask me how I know) but there is still a noticeable vibration when the machine is running.
Also correct….
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
Member
The good ones have foot mounted motors, much the same as the original design when the changeover to sheet metal construction happened.
I never said all of the CO machines were the same.
Here's what looks to be the earliest example of CO I've seen, though I haven't gone to too much bother like an owner might,
but my impression is something like these being amongst the first, though I'm not sure when Centauro shifted to solid wheels,
sometime just before the machine Andrew has I guess..if the guidepost or door handle are anything to go by.
pila-tasmowa-centauro-co-600-do-drewna-leszno-537517915.jpg
Then some green machines
48696_021.jpg
This machine might be re-painted?
f1d9448c4fcea1b5166dcbb20dc8.jpg
Guessing these are just before Andrew's machine
Screenshot-2022-5-5 centauro 600 CO bandsaw eBay.jpgStartrite Centauro.jpg
I haven't looked at the badges to see the earliest date on the solid wheel CO series, but seen plenty of early 80's machines.
Powermatic badged some Italian looking saws at one stage, what looked like it might have been amongst the earliest of them?
Guess there's some folks here more fimiliar with this like Eric for example.
Not to discount other Italian manufacturers either, since we're talking the best of the best
multico b600 .jpg
And some Minimax machines obviously
Minimax back1.jpg
And just for fun, the mythical Centauro CO PTO Series...
Centauro pto.jpeg
Contributor
Tom, not sure what you mean by “the good ones” but just to put it into perspective, there are probably 100X the number of contemporary Minimax-badged Centauros in actual operation today, as vintage ones, and the modern ones have a pretty stellar track record. Sure, there were switch issues for a hot minute but as far as mechanics and construction of the machine, I simply never saw issues that would require the kind of disassembly/tweaking/fiddling, etc. that some Creekers seem to be experiencing with their vintage saws. So, no offense taken but I would actually argue that the modern Centauros are superior, from an actual usability standpoint, to the earlier ones. Just my 2-cents.
Erik
Ex-SCM and Felder rep
Contributor
"The good ones have foot mounted motors, much the same as the original design when the changeover to sheet metal construction happened.
I never said all of the CO machines were the same."
The good ones like yours that you've spent the past two years fiddling around trying to get to work? Get real...
Member
Depends on ones perspective, I suppose.
I've seen and experienced damage concerning wheel bores, along with mentioning the Far Eastern design
which I had previously, which both the localish shopkeeper, and also the rep from the UK, couldn't get to run well,
and I believe I was the first to open the pallet, only to see the jacking screws on the hub were fully retracted, damaged and hanging on by a thread.
I could also point out some of the modern CO machines on YT, should you spot the ones not running nicely, have the flange mount motors.
It'd be interesting to see how they'd fair up with a new set of snap ons, and the longest belt one could fit to the machine,
compared to the older ones what can be aligned, without much fuss compared.
Oh, forgot to mention your point perhaps,
The tires would need dressing on the older ones, but they do seemingly last better compared.
All the best
Tom
Last edited by Tom Trees; 12-02-2023 at 7:02 PM.
Member
Sorry missed your post there John
You get me wrong, I've been much longer spending time Centaurolizing my solid wheel ACM machine, which did lend itself to the mod rather easily,
but perhaps not to some, hence my recommendation on the foot mounted motors.
One could speculate this is made so, should they study the pulley.
That wasn't much bother to make a plate up, i.e I wouldn't discount a bargain on an Italian machine again, just as long as the wheel bores were sound.
What took me the time, probably a decade of questioning things, with the machine cutting very badly, whilst being clueless, due to any guide of sorts whatsoever,
and the misinformation regarding the crowned tire profile on these machines, which I presume is the same as the Centauro CO,
i.e the apex of the crown 1mm closer to the front of the wheel on the CO 600, as is the spare snap on tire from the official dealer (Scott&SargeantUK)
And I've made some previous videos which partially explains how to dress tires (though with a flat profile, what doesn't work well)
and documented some altercations in regards to whats needed to dress them with a camber,
though I used some auld sawplate from a hand saw, what would be much improved should one source some dirt cheap circular saw plate, i.e Lidl/Aldi middle isle special,
what one could cut with a grinder to make a proper scraper from.
The other videos, prove it doesn't take long when you do things right, well for a solid wheeled saw, it's straight forward to get the wheels to spec.
The rest is easy provided one has a foot mounted motor.
Lets just hope Centauro still makes the foot mount motors, I can't find offhand, new CO machines what's not the HD line,
as I'd hate to see a smaller wheel installed on one.
All the best
Tom
Member
I can't seem to find any of what I guess might be a unicorn, in regarding the best CO what's out there,
but I can see ones point in looking for one with both the foot mount motor, and the grooved wheels, what take the snap on flavour tires.
That I suppose is the ultimate, or least effort from a serviceability standpoint, in a situation where breakdowns need be speedily sorted.
I've seen old Centauro's which feature the groove, and what's possibly interesting to some, dressed faces of the wheels what's on the Uk forum,
of you look up the SSP
Centauro wheel.jpg
Or seemingly on the S45, like this one...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads...erhaul.135069/
So it's quite likely such a CO exists, and possibly for a long run at that?
I presume there's plenty of Minimax machines what features both.
I tried searching for those Italian Powermatics, but not sure if it were a Centauro saw afterall, could only find a 900mm wheeled machine.
And I sent a picture of a Multico earlier, which I'm not sure is Italian like the Meber's?
some of those also featuring the foot mounted motors.
Funnily enough, it seems that nearly all the saws in this class now, feature the old style vulcanized tires,
which one might imagine the opposite, but I suppose there's someone like Chris Vesper providing a tire vulcanizing or re-crowning service,
to dress those tires on the new SCM machines in the USA?
Laguna's HD line being the same, as far as I know aswell.
That would make a nice wee earner for someone, take the wheels only, and they might be back again should they be running narrow blades,
on a saw what's not got a foot mounted motor in the first place.
Good to know at least there is still some leeway concerning these machines, should one study the depth of the pulley,
what simplifies things, or lends itself towards the mod, with whatever thickness plate one might have lying around.
Could even grind that ring down either, that wasn't possible on my machine as the chassis is further away from the wheel.
129129-Screenshot-2022-11-27-SCM-Formula-S-640P-Bandsaw-Installation---YouTube-1-.jpg
SAM_6746.jpg
So I chose to make a plate instead, fully adjstable to align with the column for getting rid of any vibration, and to be aligned with the upper wheel.
Some fine tuning of the depth of the pulley....
SAM_7077.jpg
Plenty of adjustment on these ACM machines, regardless what thickness plate you've got.
SAM_7840.jpg
That column was checked for trueness regarding being able to trust it, and also for one who wishes for whatever reason,
(guidepost alignment in two axis, whilst also concerning tire thickness)
Levelling is actually a frustrating experience, if wanting accuracy, but with the plumb line supported using four blocks for the column,
it's an easy enough job now, and I can open the door in the shed whilst doing so.
I've maxed out my picture count again, but you've all likely seen that already....
SAM_4964.jpg
Along with the scribing beam, what can spot a machine what's not sound, should it be running unsatisfactory,
what one could use to get the best possible alignment from a longevity standpoint, regarding components,
but also what would prove to the retailers, a new customers troublesome machine will be getting sent straight back without any arguments,
as there's no denying that the line tells all.
Unless one might get spun some garbage about the upper wheel... not being the datum for the motor and lower wheel to allign with.
Wouldn't surprise me, from what I was told on the phone regarding the Far Eastern flavour saw, it would be technically impossible for the machine to be misaligned,
as they're built around the wheels, and they got lazers too!
What's the old saying...if you can't make it accurate, then make it adjustable.
That seems to be the way things were done.
Might try digging some old threads regarding "the old man in Centauro" who was displeased about something.......
Or is that just me having another good old troll again?
Well y'know guys, all those little stories were probably of much use regarding inspiring me to figure out how to really get a machine set up with precision,
so gotta say thanks for that all.
Regards
Tom
Last edited by Tom Trees; 12-03-2023 at 8:04 AM.
Contributor
I recently acquired the BX18 and the 1-1/4" Resaw King. I'm very happy with the results. I'm actually using it to rip stock as I currently don't have the space for a table saw (yet). I think you would have been fine with 1-1/4, but 1" will do well too. It's not going to affect your warranty either. From the Laguna manual "Maximum blade width: 1-1/4", "Minimum blade width: 1/8" " I'm a little sceptical on the 1/8", but I bought Timberwolf 1/8', 3/16" and 1/4" to try out. I really like the machine, congrats on you purchase. Seems like there are lots of opinions out there.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the decision." Ben Franklin
Member
What gauge and type of blade does it state is that "maximum blade width", and do they give the specs for various given blades
as in PSI, normally this is never mentioned, and it takes real effort to get those figures from an engineer,
and worth noting ,you won't be having that conversation if you've not got a proper tension meter.
I wouldn't give any of these companies the chance to fob people off, they'd jump on that one, just like I experienced with my first saw regarding the loose jacking screws,
and you may left high and dry because of it, and I'd say this about the"smaller" inch blade, at that, if the machine isn't running smoothly,
Not to mention for the sake of a carbide blade also.
You can't blame the retailers really, regarding bandsaw design, they've got a stinking job,
as they're not selling something what's a guaranteed design with foot mounted or otherwise adjustable motor,
so someone's going to get a lemon.
I've seen a fair few of these machines now not running too nicely, one what's seemingly been used as table
as the Jurassic park test, doesn't seem to be taken seriously, and I doubt a nickel test would either,
Though worth mentioning, one youtuber who's made a series on that saw, was able to get a new wheel,
so it was nice to see that for some balance on the matter.
Good results were achieved in the end, so fair play to the retailer on that one.
That didn't seem to go down well for me with my previous 20" Far Eastern saw,
though I didn't make a video series, but posted some snaps and asked some questions on a forum, where other owners were present,
before coming to the conclusion the machine needed be returned, and contacting the retailer.
It's quite likely, that started things off on a bad note, and I wouldn't be surprised if many retailers still feel the same way today.
So it's up to the clueless newbie to get knowledgable fast about these things...
How fast, one might ask?
Well, one piece of advice is, don't go making a custom base for the machine before you get the chance to test it properly!
All the best
Tom
Member
Looking again at my post, regarding that Minimax machine, it seems John and Erik are spot on.
I had a search for some more Minimax saws, or what's likely the same machine branded as Technomax across the pond,
and couldn't find anything of any age, bar the S45N,
and looking into when Minimax started properly in the USA, it seems they were brought in around 2002.
Centauro CO machines of that age seem to be white and have the colourful sticker on front, and seemingly only found with the flange mounted motor,
so thought to find some machines from the 1990's era, but very little of them on the ground as it were.
It seems it could be identical to the 1980's machine, as the door handle is the same.
It'd be interesting to know if the wheels were the snap on flavour.
Not yet sure when Centauro went with an all white paint scheme, but wondering if there might be some machine featuring both motor adjustability
and grooved wheels, during some period during the 90's.
So apologies should I've sent one of ye on a wild goose chase.
Tom
13352755-02.1698134836__.jpg
Last edited by Tom Trees; 12-05-2023 at 9:01 PM.
Contributor
My Centauro MiniMax was white.
"Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."
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