Lesson learned veneer (sort of) need advice

[lou Brava]

Using end grain from QS oak on all 4 sides of a plain sawen white oak top. Used QS end grain veneer to achieve vertical contrast lines on table sides, the top will have a cerused finish.
Lesson learned, QS end grain cut thin is very porous ! I cut it just over an 1/8" I didn't want to go thicker thinking of wood movement. The problem is when glued it up and applied clamping very little pressure the glue in some spots was coining through the veneer onto the face now I'm worried it will not take the dye where there's glue in those pours. I stopped & 1 side is complete. I tried contact cement sample (solvent type) and it didn't bond well. I'm thinking I've got a few options & wondering if I'm missing something & what some of you would do to fix what I've got glued up and a better approach.
1 option is leave what's done & try using less glue & hope for the best
2nd remove whats glued on & figure out why contact cement isn't working or find some other "magic" type glue
3rd option I think would be to cut the veneer thicker maybe 3/8" - 1/2" and than hopefully the glue wouldn't migrate to the surface but are thicker pieces a problem for wood movement ? This would require me to re-rabbit the entire top & not what I really want to do.
Thanks
V.jpg
V1.jpg This pic is top upside down
V2.jpg Porous end grain light shinning through

[Richard Coers]

I'm surprised. White oak has tylosis in the pores and they block the porosity in the cells.

[John TenEyck]

I would use rift sawn white oak, instead. You still get lot's of linear grain. You'll have no trouble with glue bleed through, and it will bond and stay bonded to plain sawn substrate. Here's what RS WO looks like in a very deep color. You can imagine how it would take to a cherus type finish.





John

[Thomas McCurnin]

I would not have used solvent based contact cement. I would have used hide glue or liquid Old Brown Glue.

[Kevin Jenness]

Is that top veneered? The second photo suggests either solid wood or a veneered panel with a solid edging and buildup along the grain direction. If it is solid the crossgrain end buildup will cause a problem, if not forgive my lying eyes.

I too am surprised that white oak endgrain is so porous. You might try sizing the glue surface and sanding it before gluing the endgrain pieces. Another option is Unibond 800 used with a blocker to prevent bleedthrough. I would stay away from both contact cement and thicker veneer. If there are any "magic glues" I'm not aware of them, not for lack of looking.

John's suggestion of rift edging is a good one. End grain on the edge of long grain seems unnatural, though it may be just the look you are after.

Experiment before going forward or backward. Do a small sample the same as your first try and see how it finishes before redoing anything.

[John Kananis]

Are you sure that's not red oak? Looks it. Also, I agree with Kevin about binding long term to long grain. If not rift am, maybe use a colored epoxy. You can also get tint for pva glue. Check out vacuum pressing systems in Maine, I believe they carry it.

[lou Brava]

Nice responses, thanks guys. The 2 lumber yards did not have any 8/4 Rift or QS WO (good call John K) so I went with Red Oak I'm dying it so dark you cant tell difference between the WO top and edge banding.
Kevin J. it is a solid WO top and I'm kinda expecting some movement across the top, since this going in my house I'll wait see how much hopefully it's very very minimal. The wood I'm using is so dry my moister reader isn't even really working it's reading 2%-3% not sure if the dryness will help ?
I'll check oy the PVA option & Hide glue & make a call & see if lumber yard can get some 8/4 QS WO from what Richard C says that would solve the problem
Here's a pic of a sample I did for finish color & had no problem with glue on the face, when I glued this up I just tape to hold it & Kevin J. I agree it is unnatural but it IMO looks pretty cool.
samp.jpg

[Kevin Jenness]

Kevin J. it is a solid WO top and I'm kinda expecting some movement across the top, since this going in my house I'll wait see how much hopefully it's very very minimal. The wood I'm using is so dry my moister reader isn't even really working it's reading 2%-3% not sure if the dryness will help ?

If your house humidity is very stable you may luck out but the cross-grain buildup on the ends is likely to cause the top to frown when it gains moisture. Yo0u might consider kerfing that buildup every few inches with a router. Had you made the top with full thickness planks there would have been no need for end grain veneer there. Going backwards is painful, but less so than after the finish is done.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I would not use PVA on veneer. Yeah, two part Unibond or hide glue. You can order Old Brown Glue from San Diego. Works great, although I heat it up slightly.

[Mike King]

Titebond Cold Press Veneer glue is a PVA glue with ground up pecan shells that serve to block the pores and limit glue bleed through. It's been my go to glue for veneering since I learned the technique from Michael Fortune and Adrian Ferrazzutti. Woodcraft and Rocker both carry it and it has been in stock at my local stores.

[John Kananis]

Why not? Pva is great imho. Unibond is good stuff but you need a ton of heat in the shop for it to dry and cure - better for bent laminations I feel.

I would not use PVA on veneer. Yeah, two part Unibond or hide glue. You can order Old Brown Glue from San Diego. Works great, although I heat it up slightly.

[Mike King]

Why not? Pva is great imho. Unibond is good stuff but you need a ton of heat in the shop for it to dry and cure - better for bent laminations I feel.

Yeah, and I'd use a plain vanilla PVA glue before contact cement any day of the week. Still, any glue you use will potentially bleed through unless it has a pore blocker in it. Besides the Cold Press Veneer glue (Titebond) there's Better Bond glue from Veneer Supplies (Joe Woodworker).

[John TenEyck]

Yeah, and I'd use a plain vanilla PVA glue before contact cement any day of the week. Still, any glue you use will potentially bleed through unless it has a pore blocker in it. Besides the Cold Press Veneer glue (Titebond) there's Better Bond glue from Veneer Supplies (Joe Woodworker).

FYI, Better Bond is NOT recommended for shop sawn veneer, only commercially sliced stuff. I found that out the hard way on a small table I used Better Bond on with shop sawn veneer about 0.080" thick. There was nothing about it in Joe Woodworker's website, so I called him. He told me it wasn't recommended for shop sawn veneer. Later, he added it to the info. on his website. Guess I was the first to bring it to his attention.

Intuition suggests Cold Press Veneer Glue would be in the same category.

I have had good results with shop sawn veneer up to 1/8" thickness with TB I and II, Unibond 800, epoxy, and the no longer available Plastic Resin Glue. I would not use TB III because of it's low creep resistance, but many do.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

FYI, Better Bond is NOT recommended for shop sawn veneer, only commercially sliced stuff. I found that out the hard way on a small table I used Better Bond on with shop sawn veneer about 0.080" thick. There was nothing about it in Joe Woodworker's website, so I called him. He told me it wasn't recommended for shop sawn veneer. Later, he added it to the info. on his website. Guess I was the first to bring it to his attention.

John

John, what happened to your table glued with Better Bond? Open seams, or worse?

I suspect the glue used on this project is less problematic than the crossgrain rail glued to the underside of the solid wood top.

[lou Brava]

FYI, Better Bond is NOT recommended for shop sawn veneer, only commercially sliced stuff. I found that out the hard way on a small table I used Better Bond on with shop sawn veneer about 0.080" thick. There was nothing about it in Joe Woodworker's website, so I called him. He told me it wasn't recommended for shop sawn veneer. Later, he added it to the info. on his website. Guess I was the first to bring it to his attention.

Intuition suggests Cold Press Veneer Glue would be in the same category.

I have had good results with shop sawn veneer up to 1/8" thickness with TB I and II, Unibond 800, epoxy, and the no longer available Plastic Resin Glue. I would not use TB III because of it's low creep resistance, but many do.

John

Thanks John, yesterday I ordered some 8/4 QS WO (11 bucks a bd ft. !) due what Richard C. mentioned about tylosis and try using TB 1. My thought is at just over an 1/8" thick & closed pours the WO the glue will not bleed through. I'd have to order all the glues others have mentioned & I want to finish this project ASAP.
I'll post back up results
Thanks everyone, I learned a few things !