The Amalgimated Brain Trust

[Pat Germain]

"The flipside is a person could afford a 3 bedroom house on an acre of land 60 years ago. Now you need to make your first 1/4 million before you can afford anything."

BS. I tried to buy a house back in the 70's Wanted to buy a new house for 36-40k could not qualify with 2 incomes. Finally bought a house in 1980. House cost 13k NO inside toilet, outside outhouse. No central heat, had room gas heaters, upstairs had gas lights. 110 vac 30 amp electric service, 3 lights and 3 receptacles in the house. House was built in 1913, one family owned. Removed plaster to find brick inside the downstairs walls. Gutted the house, installed all new mechanicals, moved in and drywalled and finished as we could pay for it.
10% interest on the mortgage. A few years later rates went up to 18% with 5 year minimum before refinancing. Glad I bought when I did.
Interest rates all still very reasonable compared to back then. I won't go into which President and political party caused it, do to forum rules. I lived thru it, not the great times some people think it was. Better now than then.
Ron

I'm not sure of your overall point here.

Yes, you are certainly correct about current interest rates really not being that high considering recent history.

I'm glad you were able to find and buy a fixer-upper. No doubt you had to work very hard on that house. But the reality is even a fixer-upper is far beyond affordability for most young people here in 2023. Sure, you can find lower cost housing in some areas. But those areas have no jobs with decent pay which is why it's a lower cost area. In any area of the US which has any real economy with decent paying jobs, housing is uber-crazy-expensive and beyond the reach of most young people.

[George Yetka]

"The flipside is a person could afford a 3 bedroom house on an acre of land 60 years ago. Now you need to make your first 1/4 million before you can afford anything."

BS. I tried to buy a house back in the 70's Wanted to buy a new house for 36-40k could not qualify with 2 incomes. Finally bought a house in 1980. House cost 13k NO inside toilet, outside outhouse. No central heat, had room gas heaters, upstairs had gas lights. 110 vac 30 amp electric service, 3 lights and 3 receptacles in the house. House was built in 1913, one family owned. Removed plaster to find brick inside the downstairs walls. Gutted the house, installed all new mechanicals, moved in and drywalled and finished as we could pay for it.
10% interest on the mortgage. A few years later rates went up to 18% with 5 year minimum before refinancing. Glad I bought when I did.
Interest rates all still very reasonable compared to back then. I won't go into which President and political party caused it, do to forum rules. I lived thru it, not the great times some people think it was. Better now than then.
Ron

It is true mortgaging was high and hard to get but If you took your two incomes and found a way to live rent free for a year you could take your earnings and buy a house. Kids now would need 10 years salary for the same house and if they are lucky they dont have 200k in student loans. NJ is particularly high in real estate values.

[Edward Weber]

It is true mortgaging was high and hard to get but If you took your two incomes and found a way to live rent free for a year you could take your earnings and buy a house. Kids now would need 10 years salary for the same house and if they are lucky they dont have 200k in student loans. NJ is particularly high in real estate values.

I get what you're saying but finding a way to live rent free for a year? How do you do that?

When I was 21, thinking about looking at houses, the 12.5% interest rate slapped me in the face and said no. Young, single, limited to no credit history, there was no way to do it on your own. If you didn't have a parent co-sign or put up their house as collateral, there was simply no way to qualify.
Young people today may have a different set of circumstances, unique to the current economic climate but I don't see it as any more or less difficult.

[Alan Rutherford]

I remember reading something about the average person never having been able to afford a house - and that was probably in the 1970's. It's never been easy. Some times it's harder than others.

[Doug Garson]

Young people today may have a different set of circumstances, unique to the current economic climate but I don't see it as any more or less difficult.

Found this on Reddit, may not be 100% accurate but is consistent with what I've seen elsewhere. https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/co...4%20a%20month.

"1970
Average yearly wage: $9,870
Average house price: $17,000
House cost about 1.72 times your annual (single income) salary.
2022
Average US yearly wage: $53,490
Average house price: $374,900
House cost about 7 times your annual (single income) salary.
Short story,
You need to work for 6.5 years to buy a house for what people could buy them for after one year of work in the 70's."

Another quote from a different source: https://listwithclever.com/research/...torical-study/
"To understand how expensive the American Dream has become — and whether it is still achievable today — we gathered Census data from 1960 to 2017 on home prices, rents, and household income. After adjusting for inflation over time, the future of the American Dream seems rather gloomy: Median home prices increased 121% nationwide since 1960, but median household income only increased 29%.
Home buyers aren’t the only ones struggling. Median gross rent increased by 72% since the 1960s, more than twice the growth seen by adjusted incomes, making renting costlier than ever and saving for a future home difficult."

So for the current generation, it is harder to find affordable rental accomodation than it was for previous generations (that means us) to buy a home.

[George Yetka]

Another quote from a different source: https://listwithclever.com/research/...torical-study/
"To understand how expensive the American Dream has become — and whether it is still achievable today — we gathered Census data from 1960 to 2017 on home prices, rents, and household income. After adjusting for inflation over time, the future of the American Dream seems rather gloomy: Median home prices increased 121% nationwide since 1960, but median household income only increased 29%.
Home buyers aren’t the only ones struggling. Median gross rent increased by 72% since the 1960s, more than twice the growth seen by adjusted incomes, making renting costlier than ever and saving for a future home difficult."

So for the current generation, it is harder to find affordable rental accomodation than it was for previous generations (that means us) to buy a home.

These percentages dont make sense compared with the first quote.

[Edward Weber]

Found this on Reddit, may not be 100% accurate but is consistent with what I've seen elsewhere. https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/co...4%20a%20month.

"1970
Average yearly wage: $9,870
Average house price: $17,000
House cost about 1.72 times your annual (single income) salary.
2022
Average US yearly wage: $53,490
Average house price: $374,900
House cost about 7 times your annual (single income) salary.
Short story,
You need to work for 6.5 years to buy a house for what people could buy them for after one year of work in the 70's."

Another quote from a different source: https://listwithclever.com/research/...torical-study/
"To understand how expensive the American Dream has become — and whether it is still achievable today — we gathered Census data from 1960 to 2017 on home prices, rents, and household income. After adjusting for inflation over time, the future of the American Dream seems rather gloomy: Median home prices increased 121% nationwide since 1960, but median household income only increased 29%.
Home buyers aren’t the only ones struggling. Median gross rent increased by 72% since the 1960s, more than twice the growth seen by adjusted incomes, making renting costlier than ever and saving for a future home difficult."

So for the current generation, it is harder to find affordable rental accomodation than it was for previous generations (that means us) to buy a home.

( I write this fully knowing that numbers can be manipulated to support any position )

Interest rates
What a house costs and what you actually pay for it are usually much different.
In your two examples the inrerest rate is about the same, roughly 7%. In 1985, A 85k house with 12.5% 30 year rate would be well over 230k and the average income was about 24k. So the price was actually close to 10 times your pay.
So at today's rates, the total price including interest would be about 80k less and monthly payments about $200 less.

As for the wages, I agree. I really can't believe people are fighting about the FED minimum wage of $7.25 . We were making that as just unskilled laborers 40 years ago but with interest rates so high, you still couldn't afford anything, as I posted above.

In my era, we had decent wages and high interest rates, now it seems the rates are okay but wages are not.
As I said, no situation is better or worse than the other, just different.

[Keegan Shields]

Old people complaining about young people always makes me chuckle...

[Doug Garson]

These percentages dont make sense compared with the first quote.

Maybe, but note the second set of numbers are for a different time period (1960 to 2017 vs 1970 to 2022) and are adjusted for inflation. They are also from different sources and I suspect the second source is likely more reliable. In either case, and if you do a search you will find several other comparisons agree with the conclusion that wages have not kept up with increases in house prices and cost of living in general from the 60s and 70s to today. The house we bought about 25 years ago is now valued at about 3 to 4 times what we paid for it. The house we sold at the same time is now estimated to be worth about 4 times what we sold it for. In the same time period, average household incomes have increased about 2.5 times.

[Doug Garson]

Old people complaining about young people always makes me chuckle...

Luckily, young people never complain about old people.

[Jerome Stanek]

Found this on Reddit, may not be 100% accurate but is consistent with what I've seen elsewhere. https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/co...4%20a%20month.

"1970
Average yearly wage: $9,870
Average house price: $17,000
House cost about 1.72 times your annual (single income) salary.
2022
Average US yearly wage: $53,490
Average house price: $374,900
House cost about 7 times your annual (single income) salary.
Short story,
You need to work for 6.5 years to buy a house for what people could buy them for after one year of work in the 70's."

Another quote from a different source: https://listwithclever.com/research/...torical-study/
"To understand how expensive the American Dream has become — and whether it is still achievable today — we gathered Census data from 1960 to 2017 on home prices, rents, and household income. After adjusting for inflation over time, the future of the American Dream seems rather gloomy: Median home prices increased 121% nationwide since 1960, but median household income only increased 29%.
Home buyers aren’t the only ones struggling. Median gross rent increased by 72% since the 1960s, more than twice the growth seen by adjusted incomes, making renting costlier than ever and saving for a future home difficult."

So for the current generation, it is harder to find affordable rental accomodation than it was for previous generations (that means us) to buy a home.

I don't know where those figures came from but back in 1970 I was making about $4000 a year. in 1978 I was up to $15,600 a year

[Doug Garson]

I don't know where those figures came from but back in 1970 I was making about $4000 a year. in 1978 I was up to $15,600 a year

I graduated in 1973 with an engineering degree, if I remember correctly my starting salary was around $12,000 so an average of $9,870 in 1970 sounds about right.

[Tom M King]

In 1970 I bought a new Olds 442 for $3300.

[Ron Selzer]

"kids" can start as custodians with no college needed or wanted for approx 40k at schools in Central Ohio, work overtime be at 50-60k. YET always short of custodians. 10 yrs as you say, that is 400K to 600k. NO house in my 800+ home sub devolpment sells for over 350k. One just listed for 234k. 3-4 bedroom 1200-2200sq ft all have basements, 2 car garage paved driveways. built between 1995-2004. Shoots your statement all to crap for this area and unemployment is low, "According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the unemployment rate in Central Ohio for October 2023 was 3.6% [COLOR=var(--cib-color-foreground-accent-primary)]1[/COLOR]."
Ron

[Rick Potter]

December of 1964, newly married at 21, I made $440 a month as a brand new fireman. We bought a 12 year old 1100 sq ft house for $13,900. $300 down on FHA, and payments of $88 a month including tax and ins. Single income, and it cost us about $400 total (a month's income) to get in the house. Payments were under the 25% of income the FHA required at the time.

I seriously doubt anyone making bottom rung fireman wages today would qualify for that same (now 70 yr. old) house, much less meet the single income requirements. It is much harder to now own a home than we had it in the old days.

That is not even considering the 'extras' that today are considered essential, such as A/C, cable, internet, cell phone costs, etc..