Touching up stain after polyurethane coats

[Stephen McBride]

Still trying to get this coffee table finished. I ended up using a coat of Old Masters American Walnut wiping stain after the grain filler and conditioner followed by two coats of OM Espresso gel stain and the color was what we wanted. When I applied the OM polyurethane after that (proper 8-12 sometimes 24 hours waiting between coats) the sanding and buffing took away the color down to the red oak veneer on the plywood and edge banding in places.

IMG_1065.jpgIMG_1066.jpgIMG_1067.jpg

Guessing that this is in the sanding technique, which was either 3M white or black pads, 3M sanding sponges or ProSand 400 grit paper all by hand, is there any general ways to avoid this?

I applied two coats of polyurethane in thick coats with a brush to be followed by coats of 2/3 mineral spirits and 1/3 polyurethane. My fear of sanding more of the stain off is looming as I'll be staring at this piece every evening for the foreseeable future.

Given that the two coats of polyurethane are there, is there a best practice to touching up the stain?

[John TenEyck]

You can fool around with it and try to fix it, or just bite the bullet and strip it off and start over.

Raise the grain, grain fill, sand if needed and then not until several topcoats have been applied, wiping stain, forget the conditioner, sealer, gel stain, sealer, top coats. Then just knock off the nibs with 320 grit or higher or ultra fine sanding sponge, and apply your final one or two topcoats. The sponge has less risk of cutting through. And you have to be very, very careful at the edge of the table, as you found out. Essentially, don't go there.

John

[glenn bradley]

I have had some success with touch up pens. I have never tried to fix anything that large with them. If it were me I would sand to bare wood, feather into the surrounding area as much as I could and re-stain that area. The good news is that you can always try the touch up first since if it is unsatisfactory you will be sanding that area off anyway.

P.s. I have not found pen maker's colors to be reliable as named. That is "oak" may not be your color of "oak". A set can be had for under $15 and you can combine colors.

[Stephen McBride]

You can fool around with it and try to fix it, or just bite the bullet and strip it off and start over.

Raise the grain, grain fill, sand if needed and then not until several topcoats have been applied, wiping stain, forget the conditioner, sealer, gel stain, sealer, top coats. Then just knock off the nibs with 320 grit or higher or ultra fine sanding sponge, and apply your final one or two topcoats. The sponge has less risk of cutting through. And you have to be very, very careful at the edge of the table, as you found out. Essentially, don't go there.

John

Thanks for the input! Yeah, edges were my nemesis for sure.

I have had some success with touch up pens. I have never tried to fix anything that large with them. If it were me I would sand to bare wood, feather into the surrounding area as much as I could and re-stain that area. The good news is that you can always try the touch up first since if it is unsatisfactory you will be sanding that area off anyway.

P.s. I have not found pen maker's colors to be reliable as named. That is "oak" may not be your color of "oak". A set can be had for under $15 and you can combine colors.

Good call with trying the touch up anyways since the real solution is to go back to square one.

Was at the shop the other day and in their stain aisle Old Masters have touch up pens and crayons to match their colors so I’ll give them a shot.

[John TenEyck]

If it's commercial veneer plywood, be very careful trying to sand off the finish. It's really easy to sand through those thin veneers and then you'll have a problem that's even more difficult to fix. That's why I recommended stripping off the finish.

John

[Stephen McBride]

If it's commercial veneer plywood, be very careful trying to sand off the finish. It's really easy to sand through those thin veneers and then you'll have a problem that's even more difficult to fix. That's why I recommended stripping off the finish.

John

Yeah, I sanded way too much at the start, so there's a solid chance of going through the veneer. Good excuse to take a trip to the lumberyard for some 8/4 red oak to properly make the table and delay the project even more :P

[roger wiegand]

Try the touch-up methods, good for practice and to see what can be accomplished. If you end up going the re-do route I'd encourage you to consider doing the basic coloring with alcohol (my preference) or water-based Trans-Tint like dyes. Much more controllable and more forgiving-- spray application can even out color on woods that want to blotch or take stain unevenly. Then use the pigment stains on top of a shellac wash coat as grain enhancers or glazes if you like. Then top coat with your favorite clear finish.

As always, make test boards that are treated exactly the same way your piece is with respect to all sanding and finishing steps. And you can't really judge color until you are completely done.

[Stephen McBride]

Welp, the markers did exactly what I thought it would, it looks like marker. Gonna have to strip it down.

Trying to find the best way to strip it down while keeping in mind that it's plywood underneath.

Try the touch-up methods, good for practice and to see what can be accomplished. If you end up going the re-do route I'd encourage you to consider doing the basic coloring with alcohol (my preference) or water-based Trans-Tint like dyes. Much more controllable and more forgiving-- spray application can even out color on woods that want to blotch or take stain unevenly. Then use the pigment stains on top of a shellac wash coat as grain enhancers or glazes if you like. Then top coat with your favorite clear finish.

As always, make test boards that are treated exactly the same way your piece is with respect to all sanding and finishing steps. And you can't really judge color until you are completely done.

Do you have a spray alcohol based color brand you would recommend?

[John TenEyck]

Welp, the markers did exactly what I thought it would, it looks like marker. Gonna have to strip it down.

Trying to find the best way to strip it down while keeping in mind that it's plywood underneath.



Do you have a spray alcohol based color brand you would recommend?

Use stripper. It will remove the finish w/o damaging the plywood. Some strippers will remove many stains, too. My advise is not to sand it at all. Just use the stripper. More than one application may be required to get everything off. Even then, you might not be able to remove all the color. That's OK as long as you get it to some uniform color from which you can start over.

When you're ready to apply the new finish, then you can very lightly scuff sand it with 320 or 400, or finer, just to remove any nibs or rough spots.

John

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Faux painting with an air brush or feather can hide boo-boos Like that. I also use stain markers a tiny bit at a time, followed very quickly with rubbing. Getting the colors right is tricky.

[roger wiegand]

I'd always try John's suggestions before my own!

I use Trans-Tint dyes diluted in alcohol, Mohawk shellac reducer, just because it is a more consistent product than the DNA labeled "fuel" at the Borg. The latter probably works fine, I just don't need any more variables. The little bottles seem expensive, but they go a long way.

Most people seem to prefer using Trans-Tint in water. That works, but, for me, takes longer to dry and raises the grain. It also gives you more working time if you're applying the dye with a rag, and is probably healthier.

Welp, the markers did exactly what I thought it would, it looks like marker. Gonna have to strip it down.

Trying to find the best way to strip it down while keeping in mind that it's plywood underneath.



Do you have a spray alcohol based color brand you would recommend?

[John TenEyck]

Faux painting with an air brush or feather can hide boo-boos Like that. I also use stain markers a tiny bit at a time, followed very quickly with rubbing. Getting the colors right is tricky.

Yes, exactly right, but not easy. I've tried all sorts of ways to fix sanding through the dye/stain, some successful, many not. Just dye in DNA or DNA plus shellac often works using a tiny artist's brush if you have a steady hand and a lot of time. An airbrush works, too, for larger areas.

It all gets down to how much time you already have invested in the piece and how much it means. I'd go to great lengths to make the finish right on an antique or heirloom I was asked to repair/refinish it. For utility work, I wouldn't.

John

[Jim Becker]

I was going to suggest the same, John...shellac is very versatile including for small fixes as it dries very quickly, can be dyed pretty precisely with practice and testing and can also be stripped off with some DNA if you truly screw up and want to try again.