Help Deciding on Sliding Table Saw

[Jim Becker]

Aaron, the SC4C comes with a cam clamp for on the wagon "in the crate", but for additionals, those are nice options.

[Tom M King]

There's a good deal on one in the classifieds right now.

[Aaron Inami]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7". If you want to use the Kreg clamp over the crosscut fence, the smallest cut is about 10-1/2" before the flipstop assembly gets in the way of the clamp.

The stock fence for the K500 series is a shorter height fence that looks like a square aluminum extrusion. There is no DRO kit for this fence, but you -might- be able to jerry-rig the Proscale Minimax kit onto this fence. It will require modification of the DRO mounting plates as well as drilling/tapping hole into the stock Felder flipstop (and the fence needs to be at least 70"). Stock K500 fence "squarish" profile shown here:
K500_fence_profile.JPG


However, some people have gotten the larger K700 fence on their K500 series saws. This is a taller fence that has more of a trapezoidal shape:
K700_fence_profile.JPG


This larger K700 trapezoidal fence will support the Lamb DRO flipstop. Additionally, the Lamb DRO has the flip-stop on the right side which means you can make cuts down to 4" with this flip-stop. So, essentially, if you get Felder saw with a K700 style fence, you are golden for any Lamb DRO flipstop or parallel fence.

If you order a new K500S, I think it's pretty much a crapshoot as to which fence model you will actually receive.

The stock fence on the Minimax saws have the flip-stop on the right which also supports cuts down to around 4". You can get the Proscale DRO kit for the fence. However, the Lamb parallel fence will only work on some Minimax models. Many people have just bolted on an Incra LS Positioner to the Minimax slider support table for use as a parallel fence. You can see this in Micheal Robert's for-sale ad in the classifieds.

[Chris Parks]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7".

Yes but this can be overcome by not using the flip stop, instead use the rip fence to dimension the cut off to the required size and hold the material being cut in an F&F jig. I have owned my slider for over a decade and never used any clamps apart from an F&F jig. I took the long rip fence off the saw as it is a PIA if not needed for rips (which I rarely do) and I then put a short piece of the rip fence extrusion on the sliding head using it purely for measurement. I originally had a Wixey as a DRO but they are old technology these days so I added a Chinese DRO for under a $100 which is far more versatile.

Using a rip fence on a slider instead of ripping on the table (size permitting) is an idea that a lot of new owners carry over from cabinet saws. What I find most important is that the fence stops and rip fence be calibrated to cut the same at any given figure. DRO's can be added to the stock flip stops for very little money but that is a personal choice to be made by the owner.

[Josh Baldwin]

Whichever saw you get, the absolute best clamping system is Mac's Air Clamps, but current pricing is somewhere between $2.5-3k and requires an air compressor. In the meantime, I would recommend these for sliding table clamps:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KYBY6PN/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0774X67G8/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H1WFNYC/

The Milescraft trackock kit includes t-slot bolts that fit in both the Minimax and Felder sliding tables. They connect perfectly with the Kreg benchclamps. You can get the cheaper Milecraft bench clamps, but they work like locking pliers and you constantly have to re-adjust them for different material heights. The Kreg auto-lock will clamp down on any material height. The 6" bench clamp will fit over the crosscut fence shown here (i put a couple of heatshrink tubes on the 6" to prevent dinging the crosscut fence):

Attachment 509128


One caveat. I have found that the Kreg clamps will pull the material back about 1-2mm when clamping down (which makes this perfect for a forward clamp against the crosscut fence). If you are just using this as a rear clamp, I would advise pushing the wood against the crosscut fence while you clamp down so that the material doesn't shift. If you clamp down the front crosscut end first, the rear clamp will work just fine here and won't pull the wood back.

Minimax does have a heavy-duty concentric clamp similar to this Felder:
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/s...clamp-sp123941

Based on what I have seen, these clamps tend to push the material forward as you clamp down, which makes them a good "rear clamp", but I would not recommend using these for the front crosscut fence clamp. You can use one if you want, but they are extremely heavy and hard to handle. It's somewhat of a pain to adjust them and move them back-and-forth on the slider. It's so easy to loosen the kreg/milescraft kit and slide them back and forth for clamping.

Thanks for all the info on the clamps. I have that Milescraft clamp and it's great, but I definitely do experience the slight movement from the clamp. It's just not vertical enough of a motion. I'll look into those crazy expensive ones too, ha.

[Josh Baldwin]

There's a good deal on one in the classifieds right now.

Yea I did see that, but I'm in VA and it's in Texas. By the time I add freight I think it would only be about $2k less than brand new unfortunately. If I lived around there I'd grab it for sure.

[Warren Lake]

ripping off the fence is fast. Some sliders you have to be a contortionist to rip its not a comfortable stand position depending on what it has for carriage support. This slider im on is 54 cross cut, Hans and franz would be of no help for 8 foot ply edge or ripping 16 foot solid.

[Josh Baldwin]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7". If you want to use the Kreg clamp over the crosscut fence, the smallest cut is about 10-1/2" before the flipstop assembly gets in the way of the clamp.

The stock fence for the K500 series is a shorter height fence that looks like a square aluminum extrusion. There is no DRO kit for this fence, but you -might- be able to jerry-rig the Proscale Minimax kit onto this fence. It will require modification of the DRO mounting plates as well as drilling/tapping hole into the stock Felder flipstop (and the fence needs to be at least 70"). Stock K500 fence "squarish" profile shown here:
K500_fence_profile.JPG


However, some people have gotten the larger K700 fence on their K500 series saws. This is a taller fence that has more of a trapezoidal shape:
K700_fence_profile.JPG


This larger K700 trapezoidal fence will support the Lamb DRO flipstop. Additionally, the Lamb DRO has the flip-stop on the right side which means you can make cuts down to 4" with this flip-stop. So, essentially, if you get Felder saw with a K700 style fence, you are golden for any Lamb DRO flipstop or parallel fence.

If you order a new K500S, I think it's pretty much a crapshoot as to which fence model you will actually receive.

The stock fence on the Minimax saws have the flip-stop on the right which also supports cuts down to around 4". You can get the Proscale DRO kit for the fence. However, the Lamb parallel fence will only work on some Minimax models. Many people have just bolted on an Incra LS Positioner to the Minimax slider support table for use as a parallel fence. You can see this in Micheal Robert's for-sale ad in the classifieds.

Wow seems like a lot of choices I'll have to make here. The Incra option seems pretty amazing and much simpler/less expensive than 2 parallel guides. Do you think it stays 100% stable over it's length to ensure a parallel edge? Never used one before.

[Josh Baldwin]

Both machines you cite are excellent. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp and have an SC3C in my new shop building. (I had a 2005 eara S315WS in the old shop) What I like about the SC3C and the SC4C that you're considering is that they come with everything in a bundle when you buy the normal package. My saw is great and the difference between it and the SC4C is generally the stroke length. But I'm sure I'd be quite happy with the K500s, too.

Yea the SCM definitely comes with a few more standard accessories. I think at this point it's just going to be price, because everyone says they're both great. Tough decisions! ha

[Chris Parks]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.

[Kevin Jenness]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.

I use clamps to keep panels flat on the table so the scoring blade contacts throughout the cut, to hold down stacks of veneer and to keep parts from shifting when not using a fence for positioning. Probably other tasks that don't come to mind right now.
DSC_1416.jpg

[Aaron Inami]

Josh Baldwin - okay, I just got off the phone with my buddy. He has a Minimax combo machine and also uses the Incra Positioner as a parallel fence:
Minimax_incra_positioner_cropped.jpg

He has been extremely happy with this solution over time. He did say that knowing what he knows now, he would still choose this Incra Positioner as a parallel fence solution if he had to do it over again. The Incra Positioner and the Minimax support table are very stable and accurate for repeat measurements. This is an incredibly accurate parallel fence solution and it's cheaper at only about $300 or so. The Felder/Lamb parallel fence solutions are over twice as expensive.

However, there will be a variance on how straight the slider table edge is. In reality, there is no sliding table saw that has a 100% perfectly straight edge on the slider. I did a quick measurement on my K700S slider here. The dial indicator is placed exactly at the blade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OddK3RtMyw

The video shows that the slider variance is 0.010" over the first 4-1/2 feet of travel, then it quickly drops down to 0.020" on the last bit of the table. That is 1/100" variance on the first four feet which is still extremely good in my opinion. You can only do so much when manufacturing an extruded aluminum piece that is 8 to 10 feet long. This is not the same as a cast iron surface that has been machine milled to .001" tolerances.

The same issue with variance would happen whether you used the Incra Positioner or the Lamb Toolworks DRO parallel fence. If you're picky, you will need to re-zero the fence whenever you move it back and forth. Otherwise, you can figure out the point on the table where the variance is in the middle and align it there. Then you would not really be off more than 1/100" at any position. Make sense?


Chris Parks - There are many ways to accomplish the same thing with these tools, which you have introduced discussion on. However, this thread is really not about that. The OP wants help in making a decision between two or more sliding table saws and my efforts here have been to try to describe the differences and option. For example, even though Josh has said that he will never really use the rip fence, I bet that he may find good use of it anyways. If you had a 40" board and needed a 5" piece cut, the best way is to adjust the rip fence to 5" and pull the aluminum fence back before the blade to use the rip fence as a stopper. Also, until he has made some accurate Fritz-n-Franz jigs, he will likely use traditional ripping anyways for rips less than 4-7" because of the minimum cut size of the crosscut fence flip-stop.

Everyone works differently. I do hear your experience from commercial work and many commercial shop workers will throw on sheets and run them through the slider without any clamping. If you or Josh feel comfortable doing that, then great. I, personally, have been very paranoid and careful over the years when working with this machinery. If you are not using a clamp and your hands are on the material, then your hands could very well be close to the blade. They could even be behind the blade which means instant injury when you run the piece through. This can happen to any experienced mature wood worker. Review this video as reference for an real example on how fast an injury could happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Z1Q3cf5iw

When I'm using the slider, I want to have the material clamped down so that my hands are not on the material or anywhere near the blade. I'll then use the outrigger table or side-handle on the slider to push the material through. When I build a Fritz-n-Franz jig, I will definitely have a handle on it. If my hand it on the "handle", then it's definitely not going to be behind the blade.

[Warren Lake]

If the fence is in the back position the material is pushed against it. If the fence is front and the operator is careless the material could come off the fence and thats not ideal. Ive not clamped anything so far front position but can see the value in it from safety

[Aaron Inami]

Clamping safety

Here's what working with sheet good looks like without a clamping system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kks_hwEjfaY

You can see that his hands are relatively close to the blade. All it takes is being tired or distracted. We as humans are not perfect and an accident could happen any time (and has happened to several posters here on sawmill as well as FOG).

This guy's technique is actually okay, except for the fact that he's wearing gloves. I would be using a push-stick in this situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gn6dF4ia4c

Here's an example of where clamping can still help with Fritz-n-Franz jigs. He did okay until the point where he knocked away the cut-off while the saw blade was still running! I wouldn't have my hand on top of the material while running across either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq2ftbU-Zp4

[Mike King]

The clamps aid in accuracy as the stock doesn't move. Before I got Mac's clamps, the stock would sometimes move which lead to inaccurate/non-square cuts. And with the clamps, I can use them for running the shaper as well.

Not inexpensive, but they were definitely a major upgrade to my equipment and resulted in a major upgrade in my work and productivity.

Brian Lambs digital stop and his parallel guides are exceptional upgrades as well.

Mike