Looking for feedback before I buy an Avid CNC

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Good day all. I appreciate the time to read and give feedback. I think this is the right machine and price, but want feedback.

The time has come. I need a CNC to stay competitive and I also just want to create in new ways. I have “non-buyers remorse” for stopping bidding on a beautiful 5x10 industrial quality CNC. It went for $10k!!!! Another 5x10 recently sold for $11k. I have now found a used Avid CNC 5x8 with all equipment and software for $12k, hoping to offer $11k. It isn’t as heavy duty as others I’ve looked at, but it was used in a mostly hobby shop, and the guy is meticulous with his tools. You can look at his shop and see he takes care of things. He didn’t use the CNC as much as he thought, and it’s not been used much at all.

I need to make small furniture parts and cabinet parts. I also want to explore 3D carving. I want to also get a 3D scanner and go on-site to historic homes and scan things like rosettes and carvings that need to be replicated for restorations. (Historic restoration is the bulk of my business).

So- is this machine heavy dusty enough? Is the price too high for a used machine? I like that it’s modular, so I could upgrade it to a 10’ bed. I wish it were heavier duty, but I am not doing huge production work. I would add a vacuum bed as soon as possible- currently doesn’t have one.

[Jerome Stanek]

That seems like it is a little high for a used machine.

[Josh Molaver]

I'm extremely happy with my Avid pro. Upgrading the size isn't hard, but likely isn't cost effective - I'd recommend holding out for the size you want. I assume at those prices they are spindle (vs router) correct?

Configuring a new 5x10 with the base spindle and nema34 controls is ~14k, 10k seems reasonable to me if in like new condition...

[Jerome Stanek]

I'm extremely happy with my Avid pro. Upgrading the size isn't hard, but likely isn't cost effective - I'd recommend holding out for the size you want. I assume at those prices they are spindle (vs router) correct?

Configuring a new 5x10 with the base spindle and nema34 controls is ~14k, 10k seems reasonable to me if in like new condition...

I'm thinking between $8500 and $10000 for a used machine in that catagory.

[Jim Becker]

AVID makes a nice machine for the money for a "serious personal user". But for the money you're looking at, I'd buy new so you have the latest improvements and a warranty. To be clear, the AVID is not an industrial duty machine, however, so if you're intending to do real production work, think heavier. For the things you describe, it should do a good job for you. Controller is also something to consider. The standard controller is Mach4, but you can also equip the AVID with something more capable, such as Centroid Acorn. Also for architectural reproduction, be sure that there is a lot of Z axis cut depth available...trust me on that!

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm curious why you want a 5x10 for the tasks you are describing, unless you use large sheets on the regular. You can use tiling effectively on a smaller machine. I would second Jim's comments, especially w/ regard to the z-axis height. I think a welded steel machine base is a better bet for decreased vibration.

I made a vacuum table with 220v vacuum motors from Lighthouse similar to the Hurricane setup. Well worth the effort and works well with pieces that have a reasonable flat surface area.. You can combine that with t-track, but I just screw into the spoilboard for clamping when the vac table doesn't work. I also have used bluetape/ac glue and fixtures piped to a rotary vane pump with a higher vacuum level.

Plan on significant learning costs. Do your homework and "buy your last cnc first."

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Thank you all for the replies- I really appreciate the time taken, and the responses all help very much. I'll answer some of your questions and hope I didn't miss any.

This machine has a 4hp spindle.
The Z height is 8", which is about the least I would accept since I do plan to do some carvings.
The reason I want a 5x10 is because I have some things already in the works such as a 9' pair of doors for which there is a carved moulding. I would like to do that carved moulding in one piece. Tiling is an option, but I really prefer not to do that if I can get a machine right now that can do 10'.

I worked in a shop that had Laguna Swift 4x4 CNC's, and then we upgraded to the 4x8. I loved it, but there were times, such as flattening very large table tops, that I wished we had a 5x10. It is something I would need only now and then, but I would really like to "set it and forget it" and be able to do larger than 8'. That said, right now a 5x8 will work ok.

I stumbled upon Phantom CNC"s, which it turns out are made just a couple hours away from me. For around $25k I can get a new one landed cost. My options now would be buy this Avid with cash now and have a cushion left over, spend all my money on the Phantom new and eat beans and cornbread for the next few months, or buy the Phantom with 50% down and finance the rest. Right now everything is owned outright, and I love not having to worry about paying the bank. That said, the plan would be the machine earns that money back.

I don't want to get too deep off track here. I am pulling the trigger on one or the other next week. The good news is the shop is expanding, as business is booming. I am adding another roughly 400 square feet and already considering the option to add more. We are looking at upgrading other machines, so I want to keep some money for that. I wanted to gain wisdom from others that know about CNC's, and your replies have really helped so far. Thank you.

[Jim Becker]

CNCs are no different than any other machinery or business decision... "application, application, application". A CNC is "another worker" for your shop so it's important that the "new worker" has the skill set and capabilities that will "pay for their salary". 5x10 is a really good size for maximum versatility for sure. It can cut BB, "long things" and so forth while also being able to do small jobs, too. I'm not personally a fan of tiling for business use, but do agree it can be valuable for the more casual user, so the longer machine again, makes sense. Other companies to look at that are within driving distance of you are Camaster and ShopSabre; made in USA machines with heavy welded construction.

[Kevin Jenness]

Seems you have good reason to buy a 5x10 machine. I am in the buy for cash camp, but if you have work on the books that justifies a more expensive machine that is the one you need rather than a compromise that will need an upgrade or replacement later, financing probably makes sense.

If you have operated cnc machines in the past then the learning curve should be minimized, especially if the controller and cad/cam software are the same. I have found Vectric VCarve Pro to be capable and relatively easy to learn, plus their licensing plan is generous and they come out with regular upgrades (purchased, but no yearly fee). If you need to design in 3d Aspire is needed, but you can import and machine 3d models in VCarve Pro.

Whatever you get, support is important. I have received a lot of help from the Camheads group and the Vectric forum.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My business partner is in the “buy cheap, upgrade later” camp. If I knew for sure the CNC business would take off, I’d be more inclined to spend more $. I have a hotel wanting me to build a very fancy mahogany bar. It would come in handy for that, but it’s not something I HAVE to have to make it. My plan is to start marketing to restaurants and make parametric wall hangings, tables, signage, etc. All can be done with the Avid, although it’s not “industrial strength.” When I was in the islands, restaurant tables with engraved or lasered logos were a huge seller. If it works out, I can upgrade and sell it. If it doesn’t, I’m not out too much, and I’ll get plenty of use just building shop jigs and making cabinet parts.

Will keep ya posted. Again, all the feedback really helps.

[Carl Beckett]

Personally, if for business, I am a fan of keeping 'costs' low until 'revenues' are known. Too many times I see investments made on assumption of business that never materializes.

This is the magic of 'development' in business. The goal is to create a "repeatable, scalable business model" (it is not just about making something, or proving something can work - it is about developing a process by which sustainable incomes can be made - once you have that figured out you can change out equipment that is best suited for doing it - many times it is not what you started with)

[Michael Burnside]

How old is the machine? 12K seems pretty steep for a used machine considering new is 15K for a 5x10. Unless the machine was lightly used by a hobbyist, I’d expect less than 10K. Please note, you can move and industrial machine no problem, turn it on and hit the ground running, but moving that AVID will require you to redo many setup steps, re-tramming, etc. Same goes for when you resize the bed.

I do think AVID is a good idea for you considering you don’t know if CNC will be a viable addition to your business. While lighter duty, they are well thought out. If it does take off, then you can move to something more capable like CAMaster, ShopSabre, etc. For commercial use, AVID is just too light duty and 4HP is a little low for maximizing machine time and being able to run fast.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

How old is the machine? 12K seems pretty steep for a used machine considering new is 15K for a 5x10. Unless the machine was lightly used by a hobbyist, I’d expect less than 10K. Please note, you can move and industrial machine no problem, turn it on and hit the ground running, but moving that AVID will require you to redo many setup steps, re-tramming, etc. Same goes for when you resize the bed.

I do think AVID is a good idea for you considering you don’t know if CNC will be a viable addition to your business. While lighter duty, they are well thought out. If it does take off, then you can move to something more capable like CAMaster, ShopSabre, etc. For commercial use, AVID is just too light duty and 4HP is a little low for maximizing machine time and being able to run fast.

It is a year old, and he has used it very little. Landed cost new was $16k with options. It has been in a climate controlled garage/workshop. He has used it once or twice a month. He did some slab flattening and cut some cabinet parts for his own home, as well as playing around with making shop jigs. The price includes lots of tooling, computer, monitor, software, etc. It's plug and play. There is a good bit of tooling included. He wanted to grow his home business, and he just hasn't used it like he thought he would. He is selling to pay for a sliding saw that he will get more use out of. I would classify him as a hobbyist transitioning to a part-time professional. He does amazing work- I'm just saying as far as time spent- woodworking is a side gig for him out of his garage.

I am aware that it's a little low powered for a production machine, but right now we really wouldn't be pushing it very hard. Primarily we will be cutting simple cabinet parts and I want to experiment with art pieces like parametric wall hangings. Cabinets are not our main business, but they pay the bills, and when your biggest customer wants cabinets- you make cabinets. Part of the justification for this machine is that we are going to use it to cut hinge holes and shelf pins and not buy a hinge and line boring machine. I really don't mind if I have to wait for parts to be cut, i.e. slower cutting speeds and not cutting full depth in one pass. For me, just throwing a sheet on and having the machine do the work allows me to work on other projects, no matter how fast or slow the machine cuts. Again, cabinets aren't the bulk of our business, but I need to speed up that process. I also am working with some restaurant groups and expect to be making solid table tops and flatten them on the CNC as well as cut any round or odd-shaped tables.

I see it as also opening up opportunities for making shop jigs. For example- building a serpentine cabinet with curved doors. I need jigs to laminate the doors. Cut those jigs on the CNC. Cut the top on the CNC. I can still build a beautiful cabinet and it will still be hand made, but save a lot of time on building the jigs.

I also want to get a 3D scanner, as I mentioned earlier, and use it to replicate carvings and rosettes in old homes. (Not extremely complicated carvings- just matching old trim and adornments.) Arched door parts also come to mind. I have an arched door project in the works, and either cutting parts or making jigs on the CNC would be worthwhile.

I see it paying for itself rather quickly if I get the Avid. Getting a more production capable machine would require me to work the CNC more, i.e. maybe start doing signs and other CNC specific things to justify the cost, and I'm not trying to become a CNC shop- just improve the process for what I'm doing now.

Sorry for rambling- just trying to give an idea of use and expectations. I see it as making me more productive and more competitive. I feel like it's a safe gamble with the Avid- I can at least make that much back. If I decide I should have gone bigger, I can sell it and put that money towards a more robust machine. Still kicking myself for passing on the one that sold at auction. (sigh)

[Jim Becker]

Only a year old with light usage is a pretty nice thing for a pre-owned machine.

When you do get to the 3D scanning thing, just be prepared for a big learning curve because once the scan is made, there is a "yuge" amount of cleanup required to have a usable 3D model and there's a big learning curve with that. I've used one of the best resources in the business for scanning and even then, there were some surprises that had to be dealt with. (nearly hidden artifacts that only came to light when actually cutting the model)

[Michael Burnside]

A year old with moderate use doesn't sound too bad. If you're happy and the seller is happy with the price, then it doesn't sound too terrible. Good luck with the purchase, be sure to reply back letting us know what you've decided and looking forward to posts on the CNC forum. Lots of good resources here.