Router table @ a TS or shaper ?

[lou Brava]

I've been using my table saw as router table for a long time to save space the main reason. I have a 3/4" piece of MDO ply attached next the right cast iron TS wing bolted in with angle iron. I'm finally going to get a Jessem Router lift and need to replace the MDO. Choices seem to be a cast iron Router wing at about 400 bucks, buying some 1 1/8 MDF & make my own probably about 150 bucks, or buy a blank from Incra/Rockler/Kreg cut it down to fit probably 200-250. So I'm going to end up with the lift & table around 500-600 bucks. I've seen used shapers going for about the same price. I'm not familiar with shapers at all but am thinking for same price wouldn't the shaper be a better way to go as long it would be able to use 1/2" shank router bits ? Is there any advantage to having a router table as opposed to a shaper ?
Thanks

[Wes Grass]

I 'think' the key is a shaper able to use 1/2" shank tools. That's several hundred dollars, maybe your entire budget, just for a Felder spindle.

I don't know what else might be out there regarding older brands like Delta, etc. I kinda think I've seen one somewhere.

A sort of normal shaper might not have the RPM you'd want for router bits if you found a spindle to take collets.

I've thought about building a fold down RT to attach to the saw, and ditch the table. Not sure it's worth the trouble for the space it saves, but maybe gives me a bit bigger table to work with

[Aaron Inami]

I don't know that you will be able to get anything good in that $500-600 price range for a shaper. At this price level, it is mostly the really old machines and you will 99% most likely be entering a whole rebuilding/restoring exercise before it is to the point where it's usable. You may find some decent used shapers at the $1k+ level, but the good ones will start at the $2-3k+ level.

Plus, you will be spending hundreds of dollars (if not thousands) in spindles and cutterheads. I think there is probably only a few shapers out there that will have a spindle available for router collets. The shapers that can run router bits will usually max out at about 10k RPM or 12k RPM. The smaller router bits really need upwards of 22,000 RPM to be most efficient.

The shaper machines usually do not have good dust collection. The ones that have decent dust collection are many thousands of dollars. You can always build a dust hood/fence system for the top.

I think the shaper direction is good if you need to mass produce a huge amount of cutting on larger material (like if you have 80 to 90 feet of moulding for a project). But it's not as convenient for hobby work. It is a pain to setup a shaper for a specific cut. The router table is going to be much easier and faster to setup different router bits and cuts.

[David Stone (CT)]

I'm not familiar with shapers at all but am thinking for same price wouldn't the shaper be a better way to go as long it would be able to use 1/2" shank router bits ? Is there any advantage to having a router table as opposed to a shaper ?

The short answer to these two questions is (IMO): No and Yes. The longer answer is, router tables and shapers are cousins with some overlapping capabilities but a shaper is a different machine and not a bigger, badder router table.

I have exactly the kind of shaper you are by far the most likely to find for the kind of money you mention (i.e. a used Delta or Powermatic machine, equipped with a 3 HP motor, a very simple fence and a spindle of between 3/4" and 1-1/4in.), as well as the type of router table you're contemplating (i.e. router lift, good fence, dedicated router). To my knowledge, Delta and Powermatic never offered a router bit spindle for these old shapers (which have now been out of production for a couple decades) or if they did it was a rarely seen option, so I'm not sure how you'd run router bits on them. Even if there were such a thing as a router bit spindle available, or you could MacGyver something, these machines weren't necessarily designed to easily swap spindles in and out, so you'd probably end up not wanting to do it very often. (BTW, I've leave it to others to opine on how well router bits even work on these low RPM shapers, since I have no experience of that, other than to have read conflicting opinions.)

And the thing is, these old shapers don't make very good router tables anyway. For example, a router table with a lift makes extremely fine and precise movements up and down a snap, which is important in applications like joinery. By contrast, height adjustment on my old shaper is coarse and takes trial and error--sometimes lots of it-- to dial in. Another issue is the fence. To start, a shaper fence is not capable of being pulled very far back of the center of the spindle, so it would be useless if you wanted to use it in conjunction with the (hypothetical) router bit spindle and straight bit to plow a groove, say, two inches off the edge of a workpiece--a task that is cake with a router table. Another issue is that the fences on this class of shaper are finicky and getting their two faces aligned and obtaining precisely the right amount of cutter exposure is another exercise in trial an error. By contrast, even the simplest router table fence, a piece of wood with C-clamps at either end is easy to move and adjust with great precision with respect to bit exposure.

Then there is the question of tooling and accessories. It's a bit apples to oranges, but overall shaper cutters are more expensive -- often much more -- than router bits, especially in a hobby context where their vastly longer lifespan may not factor much. And shaper cutters are somewhat harder to source and the available profiles, though enormous in range, are not a 1:1 match for what is easily available in router bits (and vice versa). And a power feeder, which is a great thing to have from both operations and safety perspectives, is expensive: mine cost twice what I paid for the old shaper itself. So really, you're into couple thousands or more by the time you're ready/able to actually use your $500-$1,000 old shaper.

The real upside for these old Delta/Powermatic type shapers in a hobby context is that: (a) the cut quality is extremely good, sometimes much better than a router table; and (b) they open up methods of work and type of cut that are not possible, or at least not practical, on a router table. They're very cool tools in these regards. But they're not a machine you can just walk right up to and get down to work quickly on unless it's already set up. By contrast, ease of use, along with versatility, are the hallmarks of a router table, especially if it's got a lift.

Bottom line: The shaper is complementary to the router table, and, to my mind, the latter is much more of a fundamental/foundational tool in hobby woodworking sphere than the former.

[Richard Coers]

All your decision is based on what you make and how much you make. Shaper tooling is usually at least twice the price or more than router bits. It's money well spent if you make doors every week. Make doors every 6 months or so, router will do fine. I ran miles of product over a wing router mount when just using a piece of birch plywood with 3 coats of lacquer.

[Michael Schuch]

Shapers spin considerably slower than routers. So putting a small router bit, like a 1/2" round over bit, in the router spindle of a shaper will not give you optimal results because it is turning too slow. Larger router bits, like rail and stile sets, which you should be running at a slower than top router speed anyway should work well in a shaper with a router collet spindle.

My father switched from a Porter Cable 3hp variable speed router to a Powermatic 5hp shaper with a router spindle and all of his large cabinet router bits worked quite well in the shaper. He eventually bought shaper cutters for his cabinet work which gave an ever better finish.

My first shaper was an ancient $100 3hp 3ph Walker Turner shaper. I plugged it into my rotary phase converter, adjusted the spindle to be perpendicular to the table and it has been working great ever since. My newer shaper is a 5hp 3 phase sliding table Jet shaper that I paid $300 for. I did nothing to the Jet shaper other than plug it into my rotary phase converter and it also works beautifully. I keep the 1.25" spindle in the Jet and use the WT for 3/4" shaper cutters.

I have seen good deals on many used shapers. If you can power a 3 phase machine the quality of used shapers goes up considerably while the price for used shapers goes down dramatically. When I bought my shapers they were both too good of a deal to pass up. If you are actively looking to acquire a used shaper immediately for a project the deals all seem to want to avoid you. I also acquired my 3hp 3ph shaper feeder for very cheap and I love it... but it was not something I was searching for to acquire immediately.

It does require patients and a certain personality type to get good prices on good used woodworking machines. I call the personality type "cheap skate", which I definitely qualify as one. When looking at used shapers you want to avoid bad bearings in the shaper. Look for any play in the spindle and listen to the shaper run paying particular attention to the spindle bearings.

I would never want to go back to using a router table after having used a shaper.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Come Spring - I should have all 4 router tables up and running.
Sometimes it's just either easier or more efficient to swap out routers instead of bits.

Two of the four will probably go into the table saw.

I made the decision about 10 years ago to not get a shaper. I tried to justify getting one- but- I just don't use larger bits often enough.

Smaller bits OTOH - I use the heck out of them.

[Kevin Jenness]

Most shapers with an available router spindle have a top speed of 10,000 rpm. That is a bit slow for the smallest router bits, but you can get acceptable results with a slower feed speed while providing a more powerful and stable platform for larger bits. As well, a shaper has enough mass to mount a power feeder, and there is a wide variety of tooling for heavier work. The obvious drawback is cost, but if you can find a decent shaper with a router spindle for the price of a router table I say go for it.

[Mike Cutler]

Lou

It really depends on what you need, and how you work.
I made a really nice router table many years ago. When I bought an older 3HP Delta shaper, it took a few years, but the router table is a potting table now. I don't think I have mounted a router in that table for years now and have no need.
For the type of projects I do, and the way I work, a shaper is just a better match for me.
As for the adapter collets for the shaper to use router bits, you will quickly discover that the height of bit's and the length of the adapter, conspire to leave you without full height use of the router bit at times, and you will need a false table to get the bit at the correct height relative to the material.
The cost difference can be fairly significant, between router bits and shaper cutters, but an insert cutterhead kind of levels the playing field.
I don't quite understand David's comment on fine height adjustment. I can easily hold the height of the cutter head to within thousandths on mine. But, he is right on about the fences on the older machines. They suck!!!
If you're going to buy a shaper, commit to using it as such, with the benefit of using an occasional router bit. If you're buying a shaper to be router table, you're missing out on the advantages of a shaper, and will probably be disappointed in the end.

[Mike Wilkins]

I regularly used a router table with a 3HP Porter Cable router for serious hobby work, and recently got a sliding table shaper (Hammer). I considered ordering the router spindle for it, but opted to just keep both machines as I have too many router bits in both 1/2 and 1/4 shanks. Top speed for most shapers is around 10K; OK for most 1/2 inch bits but much too slow for the smaller guys.
I just make them work in my smallish shop. Shaper cutters can get pricey real quick.

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't have a router table, as the shapers do everything that I had previously used a router table for. That said I don't run router bits in my shapers. 40mm knives are so cheap it doesn't make sense to me.

[Kevin Jenness]

Just a comment on crappy shaper fences- you don't have to use them. It's easy to make a fence with fixed wings and a dust hood that can be clamped anywhere on the table and screw zero clearance or offset fences to it.

[lou Brava]

Wow, thanks everybody. After reading all posts I will not be getting a shaper it wouldn't it make sense as really wouldn't ever take advantage of what shapers will do. I'm a hobby woodworker & will be more than fine with a decent router table extension and a lift.
Thanks again for the help.