Hook tools and end grain

[Peter Blair]

Interesting info for sure Neil. if I did have the ability to check the temperature how do I decide if 430 is what I want or if there is a better temp. Is that based on the type of steel?

[Neil Strong]

Interesting info for sure Neil. if I did have the ability to check the temperature how do I decide if 430 is what I want or if there is a better temp. Is that based on the type of steel?

First thing, that 430 was a typo or brain snap, it should have been 450F, which would be better starting point.

Yes, Peter, the temperature you temper at will vary a little depending on the steel (carbon %) but, more importantly, it depends on your application. Some application need the steel to be as hard as practical and its toughness doesn't matter as much, while other applications need a tougher steel that isn't so brittle, like springs.

With the hooks we want them to keep their edge, which is provided by their hardness, but not snap because they are too hard and brittle. Having such a small cross section and using them the way we do, they are prone to snapping, especially the ones made out of masonry nails, so we have to pull back on the hardness at the expense of edge durability and push up the toughness so they don't snap.

With an IR temperature sensor (which I never had) you can nudge the temperature a few degrees at a time until you reach a happy balance between hardness and toughness that works for you and then replicate that precisely from then on with the same steel source. That was never possible for me back when I was judging temper based on oxidisation colour and if I got one in three right I thought I was doing well.

I suggest you start at 450F, anything below that is likely to be too brittle, and creep up from there until you find your sweet spot.

[chuck van dyck]

Those of you with experience using endgrain tools that hollow open forms from the middle out, do you turn in reverse? I’ve been experimenting with using a round nose scraper in a shearing cut with some success but its just a little too slow going and dusty. Working on the courage to try a small bowl gouge. A smooth pivot on my little 1221 seems like it would be more natural on the far wall of the bowl.

[Peter Blair]

Thanks for the info!

[Brice Rogers]

I have made a bunch of tools and cutters, including my own termite hollower. Like Reed, mine tended to clog up.

Some points of advice/suggestion for beginners. In order to see the steel change to a straw color when annealing, first you need to shine it up and remove any of the scale/dark areas. You are looking for the color to change from shiny (like chrome) to a light or medium straw color. If it gets too hot then it'll turn orange and eventually purple or blue. What you are doing in the process is taking the hardened cutter (which can be brittle) and slightly softening it. If you don't anneal it enough it'll be more prone to break but also is likely to keep its edge better. Alternatively if you anneal to much, you are taking out too much hardness and it'll dull more quickly. But slightly over or under annealed won't be a game changer - - just perhaps an annoyance.

When I'm heating my cutter to harden and quench, I usually use a magnet on a string. When it reaches the Curie temperature the steel loses its magnetism.

Some people like to quench in water and some prefer oil. O-1 steel is recommended to be hardened in oil. W-1 is for water hardening. Probably best to harden concrete nails and files in oil to minimize chance of micro cracks. I prefer oil.

[Neil Strong]

I have made a bunch of tools and cutters, including my own termite hollower. Like Reed, mine tended to clog up.

Some points of advice/suggestion for beginners. In order to see the steel change to a straw color when annealing, first you need to shine it up and remove any of the scale/dark areas. You are looking for the color to change from shiny (like chrome) to a light or medium straw color. If it gets too hot then it'll turn orange and eventually purple or blue. What you are doing in the process is taking the hardened cutter (which can be brittle) and slightly softening it. If you don't anneal it enough it'll be more prone to break but also is likely to keep its edge better. Alternatively if you anneal to much, you are taking out too much hardness and it'll dull more quickly. But slightly over or under annealed won't be a game changer - - just perhaps an annoyance.

When I'm heating my cutter to harden and quench, I usually use a magnet on a string. When it reaches the Curie temperature the steel loses its magnetism.

Some people like to quench in water and some prefer oil. O-1 steel is recommended to be hardened in oil. W-1 is for water hardening. Probably best to harden concrete nails and files in oil to minimize chance of micro cracks. I prefer oil.

Very good input there, Brice.

I will add just one comment. The heat treatment fraternity tend to use the term anneal to refer to the initial softening of the steel so it can be worked. After it has been worked comes the hardening process and finally the tempering process to partially reduce the hardness of the steel so that it is not so brittle for the purpose that it will be used for. It is during the tempering process that you see the surface oxidisation colours change. I know these terms get shifted around at times by specialists, but at the level we are working at it is probably best that we avoid that as it is easy enough to get confused without the terminology adding to our confusion...

The following webpage has more detail on the ... Difference Between Annealing, Hardening and Tempering of Steel

Normalising is another term that is used to describe heat treatment to remove the stresses inside steel after forging, etc.

If anyone wants to take a deep dive into any of this the Knife Nerds will get your head spinning with terms like Temper Annealing!!!...

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/08/...e-knife-steel/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/...ealing-part-2/

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I have a ring tool and a hook tool, which like said above I am a little hesitant to try. Normally I prefer being shown how to use a tool.

For end grain boxes with straight walls, I have been using a skew chisel as a scraper. the point goes in along the side wall and plunge straight in. To level the bottom, I first use a 1/2 inch scraper and then a 3/4 inch straight chisel as a scraper. On softer woods, it really hogs out material. I turn a lot of yellow poplar and red maple. This works great for both woods.