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Thread: Parf Benches...

  1. #1
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    Parf Benches...

    Hi,

    I've been going doing a research hole for too long and I'm still not sure what these tables are really for. Do people on here that use them (and have a tablesaw) let me know?

    My situation is that I want to be able to make relatively fast and repeatable cross cuts on sheet goods. I don't have the resources at the moment for a nice panel saw or a sliding saw. So I figure the next best method is to use the track saw. I made a list of things to purchase for the next project and I wrote down the Festool MFT. However, I just can't make myself do it. It looks wobbly and poorly made and I think I'd be angry with it as soon as it showed up. So started my Googling.

    I then came across Dash Board. Obviously nice stuff. Obviously expensive.

    Then I came across UJK, etc. Obviously nice, a bit more on the reasonable expense side IMO.

    So I see there are basically 2 methods that overlap: Have a flipper w/ a tracksaw (use extruded aluminum sides) and a fence (and for some reason you also need really accurate holes?) OR make your own accurate holes and buy accessories that use dogs for both material fence and guide rail fence.

    Both are interesting.. to a degree. I'm starting to lean towards buying some extruded series 15 aluminum, the really nice flipper by Dash Board, a fence that attaches to the aluminum (by anyone reputable) vs buying the Parf Mk II and accessories.

    My main flip flopping is: what do you do with all those super accurate holes? I have a beat up heavy duty workbench that I add moderately accurate holes to as needed to use with my Veritas bench pups and Veritas sliding bench pups. The holes don't need to be accurate: I'm just clamping and / or stopping some board from moving when I use the hand plane. The sliding bench pups get rid of misalignment issues. The Parf table tops make me feel like I'm being scammed into buying $1000 of accessories only to find out there's easier ways.

    Don't you just end up using the same area on the table top for your fence anyway (i.e. don't you only need two accurate edges that are 90 degrees to each other)? How often do you move dogs around to make it worth having super accurate holes? What are you using these super accurate holes for that you could NOT do without said holes?

    I'm genuinely curious. I have my finger hovering over Option 1 (Parf): UJK ($530) and over Option 2 (Flipper): Dash Board, Amazon and Precision Dogs ($ 600 - no accurate holes and using my existing guide rail). If I add accurate holes to the Dash Board option, I'm up to $850 (the price of a Festool MFT FWIW). Of course these prices don't reflect my hours into building or the materials. So these are becoming pretty expensive tables and I'm not entirely convinced I'll get the value out that I'm putting in.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by andrew whicker; 05-30-2023 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    Not exactly an advance user but I have a 42x72” mft made with the Parf guide. I also have assorted UJK/TSO 20 mm dogs and the Festool 55 Trac-saw. I find that movement of the dogs is dependent on the size of the piece you are handling. I’ve also used it with the 1400 router. Yes, you can likely use the same track for your cuts, but I find I move it around as needed. I have only built the one mft but everything is right on the money square/parallel wise. Pretty cool piece and I’m really just getting started with it.

  3. #3
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    I recently went through a similar process. In my case, I only wanted it for a portable work table and not for the cutting features. I needed up going with a Kreg ACS table because it’s larger, felt more stable than the MFT and it could use my 3/4” clamps from my normal bench. At the end of the day, it is still a portable table and isn’t going to be stable like a real bench, but it has been great. One feature I thought nice if you were going to use the tracksaw setup is that it can handle a 48” cross cut. You can adapt it to fit the Festool tracksaw as well, but I haven’t done that. The Dashboard looks really nice but it’s a fortune. I think to get the most of a MFT, I would have to mount it to a solid surface so it stayed more stable. I also think I would need at least two of them to have enough work space. The Kreg table comes with the cross braces on it also where the MFT they are a $100 extra. But, if you are not sold on the 20mm part of it, check out a Kreg table next to an MFT next time you are at a woodworking store. May be enough to cover your needs and its a little cheaper too.

  4. #4
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    There's exactly zero reasons why you can't make your own work surface with the 96mm grid of 20mm holes to whatever size and specification you want. One SMC member even build their own track height and lockdown system that mirrors the MFT. You can use the Parf system or similar to do the grid if you choose or hire a CNC operator to cut the grid for you...whatever works.

    BTW, the MFT system is sturdier than you might think, but remember, it's designed for portable applications. I have one and while it doesn't get used much, it's been very useful over time. It's also not able to crosscut the full width of a typical 1225 mm wide piece of sheet goods. If that's your application, you'll want to "roll your own". One application I really like mine for is for cross cutting dados using my OF1400 router on the track for long things like the sides of a bookshelf. That's a job that's painful to do any other way.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
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    I slept on it and woke up with a plan. Below is what I'm purchasing. I backed off on the fence w/ stop by UJK ($ 145) and a few of the taller locking dogs. I don't see much value in the fence upon further reflection. Maybe for dados in the future. However, since I have the layout tool, I can make my own flat fences pretty darn square and parallel w/ holes. Basically I am buying a good number of locating dogs, a few threaded flush dogs for what I imagine I'll use to locate stuff in the future and a few "revision" dogs which allow me to add more holes in the future. I'm so happy they make those.

    I'm going to start out making enough holes to have a fence for my material and a fence for guide and not much extra. The price I'm at is $380, which is well below the Festool MFT price (and almost equals the price of the Dash Board flipper). I'll give it a go on a flat assembly table I've already built and try to use the saw only on one area so that I can make it sacrificial and just replace the surface in that one area as time goes on.

    I found a cool solution to having a stop w/o a fence. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el1FuLJrQR0&t=0s)

    Because I've saved some money on this stuff, I'm also going to get the Betterly Straight tracksaw connector ($ 120). I've always had a bit of an issue getting the tracks together even when using a 6 ft level. I'll also be getting a folding layout square and PEC combo ruler w/ protractor. Oh, how I've wanted a combo protractor ruler. I also have to get a proper dial indicator setup w/ mag base (used on ebay).

    Even after these additional tools, I'm spending LESS or EQUAL to what I would have spent for a Festool MFT but getting much more IMO.

    MFT table.png

    Cheers!

  6. #6
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    So, here we are after all taxes and shipping for everything mentioned above:

    - UJK set above
    - Brown and Sharpe used dial indicator and mag base w/ accessories (ebay - two different sellers)
    - Betterly tools track guide alignment tool
    - Folding carpenter layout square (ACME tools)
    - PEC blemished 12" combo square (w/ square, protractor and Center Finder)

    Total price: $ 887

    tool upgrades.png

    I was going to buy the dial indicator setup regardless. So... really I just got a dial indicator setup for free! Anyway, I'm happy with the above purchases. Glad I slept on it. Happy I didn't click any Buy buttons before sleeping on it. That took lots of YouTube videos and forums, etc. Whew. Time to actually go back to work.

    : )

  7. #7
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    My first "MFT" I bought the UJK 20mm bit for 45 bucks and drilled my own using a drill guide and my festool track. I didn't need any of the critical offsets or jigs that rely on the 96mm spacing. I've build a couple replacement MFT tops for my friends using my CNC, but personally I don't find them all that useful, but they like them, so I'm happy to help. I have a few dogs in key locations, but otherwise I don't use them. I have 1545 aluminum extrusion around the perimeter of my workbench and use a combination of Dashboard accessories (trackstars are amazing) and Kreg KBC6 Automaxx clamps. I absolutely love it. I probably have invested 600'ish in Dashboard stuff and another 150'ish in Kreg clamps.

    I personally find it baffling why people spend that much on a workbench top, but to each their own. Some might say the same to me when I buy one of those "red" tools
    Last edited by Michael Burnside; 05-31-2023 at 7:02 PM.

  8. #8
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    Have a look at what Derek Cohen has done without buying expensive stuff.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  9. #9
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    Props to him for sure, but I enjoy some of the expensive stuff, it's one of the many things I love about woodworking and one of the few my wife doesn't

  10. #10
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    I don't think $380 is expensive if I get plenty of use out of it (which is the plan). I do think $150 for the UJK fence is expensive because you can replace it w/ wood. It's all relative. I try to buy what I can't make or what I can't make reasonably. I personally think dropping $100 on aluminum extrusions, $ 325 on a flipper and then $150 on a permanently fixed 42" tracksaw guide is too expensive for what it gets me: a permanent track saw flipper. Nice and I can obviously see the benefit, but that's $ 600 for a thing I can do for $380 pretty much just as efficiently and w/ more options.

    Heck, I just dropped $450 for knives, a new cutter head and a few spacers for my shaper. But I get something that adds to my shop's capabilities in a real way.

    I try to get advice from the old timers with decades of experience. They're usually pretty good at figuring out what to build in their own shops and what minimal things to buy from vendors. Measuring devices (besides scribing lines): pretty much buy from vendors. Jigs... pretty much make your own. Only buy when absolutely necessary. Hence why I'm basically just buying dogs. I'll figure the rest out as needed.

    Here's a perfect example of marketing:
    ujk marketing.jpg

    Oh, so I'll just add a dado at some oddball spacing that works exactly w/ your tooling? I mean, I guess I can plan everything in advance like that, but looks like if I need to place the dado 1" to the either side of that image I'm going to have some issues to figure out. So maybe I just buy the pins and I'll figure out the dado fences later...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew whicker View Post
    I don't think $380 is expensive if I get plenty of use out of it (which is the plan). I do think $150 for the UJK fence is expensive because you can replace it w/ wood. It's all relative. ....
    Like what you said at the end, "It's all relative". I don't think any woodworker needs to apologize for the approach they take. Different skills, different mindsets, different budgets and different priorities.

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