Hollow form or closed form?

[Russell Neyman]

This discussion won't resolve anything, but it may provide some entertainment.

When we share our work, we are inevitably required to describe the piece we've created, but there are times when the definition of shape a particular is up for debate. For example, at what point does a closed form become a hollow form? To my way of thinking, a "hollow form" is an urn-shaped vessel with an opening of less than one-quarter of the diameter, but I bet other people would define that differently. Inversely, in my world a "closed form" has an opening of more than half of the diameter, but there probably a bit of disagreement about that.

I also admit to feeling unsettled about calling certain pieces "boxes" versus "lidded jars/bowls." I always thought boxes were square items, so I prefer the latter description. And if I've created a closed form per the description in the previous paragraph but add a lid, does it suddenly become a "box?" Is an urn with a cap a "box," as well?

Now, I know some of you will say "who cares?" but the nomenclature surrounding our art can be muddley.

[Edward Weber]

There are many aspects or woodturning ;language and definitions that are just hearsay and opinion. There are very few, if any, objective sources that you can point to. The closest thing you usually get is "insert name of professional turner" said it, so that's what I'm going with.

I agree about the whole box thing. For me, a box is square but when talking turning, which I do often, (Woodturners Resource Mod, Admin) I split it up a bit.
A turned box is wider than it is tall, (think bento box) if it's taller than it is wide, then it's a jar or lidded vessel.
I've never really heard a good description of closed form vs hollow form, yours seems to tick the right boxes for me.

It can, and often does, get confusing.

[Eugene Dixon]

Like baseball, it's not a "strike" until the ump says it is. In woodturning, everyone calls their own game. You just don't get thrown out for arguing the call in woodturning.

[Russell Neyman]

Then, there's this excellent piece, which adds wall thickness to the hollow form discussion:

TRB Woodturning - Hollow Forms

The author says.

Hollow form is a term typically applied to turned objects that narrow toward the top and that are hollowed out inside to a uniform wall thickness. Hollow forms allow the wood turner to explore and create a greater range of freeform shapes that can exhibit the grain and detail of particular areas and orientations within the tree.There are two "nerve racking" periods in creating a hollow form. The first occurs during the initial phase of turning the external surface, during which there is an ongoing decision about the ultimate shape of the hollow form, and whether cutting a bit deeper will better display the unique character of a particular piece of wood (remembering always that once a layer of wood has been removed, it can't be put back). The second challenge presents in the hollowing phase. How thin to make the walls? If the wall is thin enough, the wood can flex during the differential shrinking that is an aspect of the drying process. The flexing will usually prevent the wood from cracking and may subtly alter the shape, as if allowing Nature to have a hand in its creation. A woodturner takes pride in the skill of turning the walls very thin, and in hollow forms it is even more difficult to create thin walls. But, trying to turn thin walls presents a risk. A mere fraction of a second of distraction, and the cutting tool can pierce the wall, or even shatter the object. The more beautiful and carefully crafted the outside was, the more regrettable and embarrassing is such a slip-up.

[Peter Blair]

A rose by another name . . . sorry! Does it really matter? Maybe it's just me?

[Edward Weber]

It only matters if you are trying to understand what other people are talking about.
I agree that everyone can interpret things in their own way but a basic set of standards to start with would help.
With no actual reference material to speak of, many of these terms get used interchangeably and it is confusing to say the least. No one is technically wrong or right and nothing gets resolved.
If I point to a chair and say it's a desk, you would tell me I'm wrong and would have ample evidence to prove me incorrect. In turning, there doesn't seem to be the same thing going on.

Back to the OP, Boxes should also have straight interior walls. IMHO

Hollowform wall thickness is mainly there to impress other turners, there is no real need. they are dust collectors, sorry, artistic vessels that rarely get handled.

This discussion is starting to remind me of "what determines a turned object"
One turned element, over 50% lathe work, how does one decide?

[Peter Blair]

All good points. To me if you pointed at a desk and said that is a chair I would simply answer that to me it is a desk. As far as being a turned object might be even better to then decide what the actual meaning is of 'turned'. Are talking about something that has been rotated by some means and then the shape altered as it is turning? The box question and again this is just me but call it what you will I turn boxes of all shapes and sizes and am unsure when it becomes a closed vessel or a hollow form or just at turning. I guess I should leave this sort of question to the thinkers in the group. I am just a maker and a lot of what I make is called by my friends something quite different than what I thought it was. Thanks for starting this discussion and putting up with the likes of me!

[Russell Neyman]

Hollowform wall thickness is mainly there to impress other turners, there is no real need. they are dust collectors, sorry, artistic vessels that rarely get handled.

This discussion is starting to remind me of "what determines a turned object?" One turned element, over 50% lathe work, how does one decide?

My friend, Dave Schweitzer, often advises other turners with a similar tone. "The only people who care about wall thickness and evenness are other woodturners." Having said that, I admit I enjoy handing one of my thin-walled hollow forms to somebody, and he/her sticks a finger through the small opening and exclaims, "How the heck did you do that?!"

And, as you and others have pointed out, all of this is subjective and really doesn't make any difference in the scheme of things. Having said that, the obvious contradictions make me chuckle. It came to mind because the other day one of my students proudly announced that he was "bringing his very first hollow form" for me to see. I was excited, because this individual was often apprehensive about busting through a side wall or creating a different shape, so this was a big deal. When I saw it, I was disappointed, because it was nothing more than a tall-ish bowl with the upper edges slightly turned in. But he was proud of it and pushed his envelope, and that's the important thing.

[Neil Strong]

Richard Raffan also uses 'pot' as a descriptor, also 'vase'.. eg... Cedar Pot eg... Vase

On boxes being wider than they are tall, I'm not sure Richards would agree with that... eg. Boxes
or Benoit Averly that their insides should be straight.. eg. Boxes

[Russell Neyman]

I'm enjoying this discussion because it underscores how free-flowing and unstructured our craft is. Yeah, some have replied with, "who cares?" but it's interesting to hear how others deal with it.

[Edward Weber]

Richard Raffan also uses 'pot' as a descriptor, also 'vase'.. eg... Cedar Pot eg... Vase

On boxes being wider than they are tall, I'm not sure Richards would agree with that... eg. Boxes
or Benoit Averly that their insides should be straight.. eg. Boxes

Well there you go, a typical situation of who's right or who's not.
In my shop there are vessels, jars, boxes and containers. They are what I say they are. I don't think I ever turned anything I called a pot.
When does a shallow bowl become a platter or vice-versa? Where does a dish fall into this.

There is a whole dictionary of turning terms that have no set meaning.
I started turning long after I had a decent background in "flat" woodworking, as turners say. The most difficult thing to learn for me was the terminology, still is.

[Russell Neyman]

Just stumbled across this

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....-a-Hollow-Form

[Edward Weber]

That was 10 years ago, nothing has been decided.
Call things what you want, just don't expect anyone else to call them the same as you.

[Neil Strong]

call things what you want, just don't expect anyone else to call them the same as you.

.............. :~)

[Wyatt Holm]

Terminology can get quite confusing, such as this riddle describing an egg:
A box without hinges latch or lid, yet golden treasure inside is hid.