Looking for horizontal slicing bandsaw, g0503?

[Ron Selzer]

> I have a 2hp bandsaw in the basement shop and use a 3hp vfd to provide 3 phase power to it. Cost less than $100 when I did it in 2021 and it starts so easy.

Ron.... In yesteryear, (30 yrs ago?) I used to install "Soft Starts" when they were popular, but they seemed to fall out of favor....but agreed, start is so nice....but all my 5HP machine start with minimal "jolt", prob. because RPM is not that great on most ww machines, AND they start unloaded. (vs. HVAC fans or pumps)
But u peaked my curiosity on what motivated you to do this?

If surge is a concern as in this thread, even with multiple motors, as mentioned by a previous poster, to avoid the simultaneous start surge which "sometimes" can be an issue...just stage their starts.

I don't have 3 phase power at home for the saw, ordered and paid for a control panel for a 3 hp motor to make a rotary phase converter and it had not shown up(only showed up after filing a complaint with PayPal about non delivery). I bought the VFD from Amazon for less than $100, wired it up and saw runs great. Months later the control panel showed up. It still is in a box somewhere and a brand new 3hp, 3 phase motor is sitting in the garage unneeded. Really enjoy how smooth the saw starts and sometime need to program the deceleration time to stop it.

The old high school where I work was torn down a couple years ago, it had a 25hp fan on the cooling tower, probably about 75' of wire from starter to motor. This conduit ran thru the boiler room, I would be doing summer maintenance on the boilers/pumps and the tower fan turned on. Could hear that wire sing over top of the radio. Sure this was "cheap", multiple starts an hour. Kept requesting to put a VFD on that unit and was turned down. Energy Consultants said not economical to do this. Yet had VFD's on 7.5 to 20 hp motors thru out the building. Obviously was missed on last energy audit/upgrade and could not be admitted to now. Junior high had a smaller motor on the cooling tower and it had a VFD.

As to the original poster, he is running a business and should have a demand meter, anything that keeps from setting a new peak or lowers his peak needs to be considered to control costs.
Ron

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I think you are right. A single phase 10hp unit will get you up and running quickly. All you need is a 60 amp circuit.

10 hp is darn big for single phase. The vacuum pump for the dairy is 10 hp single phase, when that thing starts the dusk to dawn lights at the neighbors farm go out for a few seconds. The heavy 3 phase loads in the shop that are powered by the roto-phase do not cause this nor does starting the roto-phase.

[Alex Zeller]

The only difference I can see between a horizontal resaw bandsaw and a band mill is the resaw has two arms that push down on the wood to hold it on the conveyor belt. The infeed side shouldn't matter but I could see the outfeed one pinching the blade at the very end of the cut. Other than that I don't see why a 10hp electric resaw saw would perform any different than a 15hp bandmill. I know plenty of people who mill hardwood around here with saws less than 15hp without issue. I'm sure you are not going to cut at the max speed of the conveyor belt but I bet if you're doing it alone it'll be more than fast enough to keep you busy. With Wood-mizer being close I would call them and see if you can arrange a demo. See how it does cutting something like hard maple or oak (knowing that a sharp carbide Lenox will most likely cut faster/ better than the blade on the saw).

[Will Blick]

Interesting Ron...
VFD's rarely have good economic payback...the rare circumstance is when a system is over designed, and provides extra capacity all year when not needed, such as a LARGE HVAC fan that delivers constant speed regardless of the load. (a poorly designed system) Especially if there is huge load variance. But it requires more than a VFD, as the VFD must have knowledge (input) of the situation...so, one thing leads to another, and before you know it, you have a large project that yields 20yr paybacks. With cooling towers, they can cycle on and off when set point is reached, so there is a nice size buffer (the water mass and the associated latent energy of natural evaporation) But if money was no object, I agree that VFD's not only provide a smooth operation, but increases the lifespan of the motors, and other components as a result, especially the bearings, motor mounts, etc. But this is rarely considered during design, low cost wins. Sorry for the tangent.

As for the OP and electrical demand charges...many utilities do not even charge for demand, while others base all their tariffs off of peak demand..and some even ratchet the demand for some serious year round consumption penalties. Hence why I suggested to the OP to investigate his rate structure...but overall, the loads he is talking about now are small enough where it should be a non issue, as this thread went from minor loads to much more significant loads with some of those huge machines, which turned out to be overkill for his needs.

[Ron Selzer]

Will
I don't have the training to calculate the savings, however have been the installing tech on energy retrofits for schools back in the 90's. One of the first things that happened was to put VFD's on all the pumps and any AHU's over 5hp. The sales engineers told me the pay back was quick on those. Had to be as new roofs were typically part of the project along with profit and overhead for the companies I was working for. My first exposer to VFD's were 250hp driving parrell 125hp fans new construction, down to 20hp in 1988. During the 1990's dropped down to 5hp as drives progressed. Now they are so cheap that even 1hp get them.
Locally they hit the business hard on demand charges. Back when I was in construction was told to stagger the starts, also to limit starts per hour both for demand and to keep from overheating the motors. One building I worked on, once 5pm rolled around was allowed to start all the chillers to make ice for the next day as enough people had left to drop the load from elevators running.
Have learned different things as this thread progresses, that is the nice thing about this forum, lot of different professionals on here sharing their knowledge and experiences.

[Will Blick]

Ron, not wanting to hijack this thread, so just a few comments. You have worked with some very large motors. I managed an engineering division of a Fortune 100 company that did the consulting work for these type of applications, as well as utility rate analysis studies throughout the USA. So often I (or my team) was the guy doing the studies for such recommendations. But I have been retired from that field for 25+ years now.

As I mentioned previously, what was remarkable to me was, how the same application of energy conservation measures in one part of the country offered a reasonable payback, say 3-4 years, but yet, in another part of the country it would offer a 30yr payback (not feasible). It was not unusual to see the cost of utilities alone being 10x greater in certain parts of the USA vs. others. This radically shifted what measures were economically feasible by the cost of the utilities and subsidies offered, not by the conservation measure itself. Certain areas like Philadelphia had the extremely high demand ratchet clauses you refer to, which made the measures there, unique vs. most other major cities. Other times, the sensible payback projects were driven by subsidies, often funded by the utilities, forced by the state / Fed programs in place. But as always, utilities get all rebates and subsidies reimbursed through the rate base. Interestingly enough, all the State and Fed. subsidies which created the conservation boom as they made conservation projects cost effective....those subsidies shifted around the mid 90's from demand side, to supply side, i.e. more cost effective and cleaner energy generation, mostly renewables. Some large utilities would fund $1 Billion in subsidies for a given program. Utilities are Monopolies and its remarkable how big some of them are.

Anyway, hopefully some of this is helpful for large ww energy users, as energy cost keeps rising and can be a consideration for large manufacturing plants.

[Ron Selzer]

Will thanks for the information. I have worked only in Central Ohio.
Ron

[dirk martin]

Now I just found someone that has a Grizzly G0504 for sale, about 200 miles from me. He said it's lightly used, and he'd take $15K for it.
Now, my indecision gets worse.....right when I was leaning towards the Woodmizer......

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[Bradley Gray]

Nice. What would it cost to supply 30hp 3 phase? I'm guessing it's close to 200 amps.

[Dave Sabo]

Now I just found someone that has a Grizzly G0504 for sale, about 200 miles from me. He said it's lightly used, and he'd take $15K for it.
Now, my indecision gets worse.....right when I was leaning towards the Woodmizer......

This seems like you're letting (false) emotion cloud your decision. You had ruled this machine out a day or two ago. Why?

Simply on price ? That wasn't my impression. The 30h.p. / three phase is gonna sink both your time clock and wallet to get it up an running. Seems like you're getting in a lather because it's a "deal" . But, is it really ? If he bought it pre-pandemic; the asking price may be more than he paid for it. And you still have the power issue to deal with.

From a business standpoint this machine either works for you at full price or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the "discount" doesn't all of a sudden make it so.

[Bradley Gray]

Dave makes some good points. I looked at the 10hp Woodmiser- looks like a money maker. I think the cost and time involved in setting up 30hp 3phase would be major. Plus, it would really make your meter spin!
Having parts within driving distance Ang good tech support is another plus.

[dirk martin]

Nice. What would it cost to supply 30hp 3 phase? I'm guessing it's close to 200 amps.

About $4,000

[dirk martin]

This seems like you're letting (false) emotion cloud your decision. You had ruled this machine out a day or two ago. Why?

Simply on price ? That wasn't my impression. The 30h.p. / three phase is gonna sink both your time clock and wallet to get it up an running. Seems like you're getting in a lather because it's a "deal" . But, is it really ? If he bought it pre-pandemic; the asking price may be more than he paid for it. And you still have the power issue to deal with.

From a business standpoint this machine either works for you at full price or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the "discount" doesn't all of a sudden make it so.

Wow....talk about hitting the nail on the head....
You are soooo right.

[dirk martin]

Dave makes some good points. I looked at the 10hp Woodmiser- looks like a money maker. I think the cost and time involved in setting up 30hp 3phase would be major. Plus, it would really make your meter spin!
Having parts within driving distance Ang good tech support is another plus.

More good points, Bradley. You and Dave are both un-clouding my decision. Thanx

[dirk martin]

Well, I called Woodmizer today, to order my HR120, and they told me it's on a 47 week backlog. 47 WEEKS !!!

I don't wanna wait that long, so I'm back to the drawing board. That Woodmizer would slice up to 18", and ran on single phase 10hp.
The Grizzly G0503 will slice up to 12", and it comes with a 20hp 3phase. That 3phase puts it out of the running.

There's got to be another solution for a wide horizontal resaw out there, that runs on single phase....
Anyone got any ideas?