Apollo Turbine w/ Fuji hose (& gun)

[andrew whicker]

I got my Fuji 3 stg to spray oil based. Then found out Utah's valley doesn't allow oil based paint (air pollution). I've been trying for days to get the 3 stage to work. I'm thinned to 10%. I've used BIM extender. I just can't get this water based enamel (SW) to atomize or settle flat enough.

The Apollo 5 VS looks pretty nice (I like the more accurate pressure knob and the hours gauge). However, I can't seem to find what part I would need to use the Fuji hose on the Apollo machine. Seems like an easy part, but I can't find anything online so far.

I can't be the only person in this situation.

Is there something any of you know about to work with this?

Thanks much and cheers,

[John TenEyck]

I bet we can get this resolved, Andrew. What's the pressure of your Fuji 3 stage unit, what's the viscosity after you thinned it to 10%, and what size needle are you using?. And are we talking about Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel or some other SW waterborne?

John

[andrew whicker]

Its the sw emerald you mentioned above. I'll time the paint and let you know. The smallest tip I have is 1.3. I have 1.3, 1.5, and 1.8

[andrew whicker]

20230515_210451.jpg

20230515_210420.jpg

Here are some finish photos. Practice pieces. Mdf w shellac primer. 3 coats (only will use 2 coats on real projects. Just practicing.) With 220g between coats.

Last coat was 10 percent w BIM extender. Did 1 cap full of extender for like... 1/6 of a gallon. I am using a wet film gauge.

[andrew whicker]

20230515_213811.jpg

This seems to be my best atomization that is reasonable amount of fluid.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Only responding as I just finished using that very product, and pulled a bit of guidance from a pro painter friend.
For SW Emerald Door and Trim Urethane, he found that even with a fair amount of thinning, he felt he could not get a "wet enough coat" with his HVLP turbine. Sorry, no N/N data given. He ended up thinning around 5% and using an airless, achieving what he calls a "candy coating" look to his own kitchen cabinets. I had similar results to yours initially, which is why I asked him how he got his excellent results. I often try to follow directions, and both versions of the SW Emerald indicate "no reduction needed". Reality shows, I need to go to 10% thinned every time, which I simply do with water. Went from what looked like a textured drywall to a much smoother result. I've recently switched to a 2.5 gallon pressure pot and a CAT Express gun. Super nice atomization with that 10% thinned mix, and, perhaps a shock to some, I've been running a pretty small 1.3 N/N. Pressure pot is set at an usually high level of about 20psi (1-2 BAR). Prior to thinning, I had to push at 30psi just to get that thick stuff to move!
Sorry this may not be much help to you, but the suggestion would be to use an airless if you have any access to one at all, as again, a well known local pro seems to think you'll not be able to quite get there with a turbine, for what reason I could only guess. I gave up on turbines well over a decade ago. The fast, fine spray control offered by the compressed air driven CAT HVLP gun and a pressure pot that can push almost anything through it is much more nimble and better suited to detailing furniture and cabinetry, IME.

Final results in satin sheen:

Emerald Urethane Satin.jpg


FWIW,

Jeff

[John TenEyck]

Andrew, I'm a little confused. The title says Apollo Turbine but then you said Fuji 3 stage in the first line. I can't find the pressure for Fuji's turbines, but the Apollo 3 stage is 7 psi, so let's assume that. I think that should be enough to spray Emerald Urethane as long as your gun is pressurized. Yes?

I use the following settings with my conversion gun to spray Emerald Urethane. 1.5 mm needle, 10 psi at the nozzle, 6 psi to the cup, and I thin the Emerald Urethane 10% with water. I do not use BM's Extender with it, as I didn't need it.

Thanks for the photos. The pattern photo shows you aren't getting very good atomization. The first two photos suggest it's not flowing out very well, and it looks pretty heavy as I think I see some orange peel or a fisheye. What's your mil gage readings?

I think you need to go to at least the 1.5 mm tip if your turbine's pressure is less than 10 psi, which I'm quite sure it is. That means the viscosity should be something around 50 - 70 seconds through a #4 Ford cup if your gun is pressurized. If it's a gravity feed gun then you'll need at least a 2 mm needle. Get the best pattern you can and then try spraying a 3 - 5 mil coat from two passes that overlap by 50%. If it won't flow out it's probably because the RH out there is really low, and or your gun is blowing hot air. If that's the case, then you'll have to add Extender. I'd start at 4% vol, and go to 6% if it still won't flow out.

If none of the above helps, then it's time to consider another product or a different gun.

Good luck,

John

[andrew whicker]

Thanks for all the help. I think I'm in the right ballpark but just simply need more pressure. Turbines may just have too hot of air coming out of the machine. But plenty of people seem to have success with them.

The post was originally about upgrading to a 5 stage. I have a 3 stage. The 5 stage Apollo will give me 10 psi. My current fuji 3 stg gives me 6.5 psi.

I have a graco airless cordless gun that I honestly loathe to use, but I can give it a shot.

I got the 3 stg because I thought I would spray oil based but utah won't sell oil based as far as I can tell.

[andrew whicker]

I'm spraying at .004 thickness. I can literally see the bumpiness / orange peel of the paint after spraying. I thought this paint self levels for brushes but I just don't see it happening even with extender keeping it wet for like 15 minutes after spraying. I can tell atomization isn't fine enough. And if the paint doesn't self level enough then I'm kind of screwed. I think the only solution is more pressure as far as I can tell

I sprayed both vertically and horizontally. Same ish results.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I thought this paint self levels for brushes but I just don't see it happening even with extender keeping it wet for like 15 minutes after spraying

I too, have tried extender, theorizing that staying wet longer should assist in self leveling. All I got was very close the same undesired results plus sags due to the extended dry time. Solution: again, 10% thinned with water was the recipe for success.

On the topic of the "self leveling" properties of SW Emerald when Googling it, I was taken to responses that insisted you need to be patient, as the product is an enamel, and given enough time, it will self level. Well, as you and I have found, you still must have the right product consistency and gun setup.

One last interjection: I have found YT vids extolling the virtues of this outstanding paint, one of which actually claimed a full 15% reduction before experiencing the desired results, which IIRC, she was using a compact airless to apply.
Pick a number: 5%, 10%, 15%, but no one I've found who is giving an honest, real world review of this stuff in use could get it done straight out of the can, and not a word about using an extender. Straight water.

Again, FWIW,

jeff

[John TenEyck]

Here's a thread from when I first sprayed Emerald Urethane. Note that one person has had success spraying it neat with an airless rig.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....erald+urethane

With respect to dilution, the maximum listed on the label is usually 10%, but I've gone higher (on other products, like Pro Classic (18%) when all I had was a gravity feed gun) when I needed to and had no issues. If nothing we've talked about gives good flow out for you Andrew, I'd try 15% water and see if that works. If it won't work even at 20% then I'd call it a no-go with that gun.

John

[andrew whicker]

Sounds good. I really do appreciate all the help.

I was talking to someone the other day that had experience painting with turbines. He told me that too much thinning decreases the sheen


Have you experienced this? Like more than 10 percent will go from gloss to semi, etc.

[andrew whicker]

Also, have either of you experienced "craters" in your paint? Is that due to bad prep on my part? Gun too close?

[Atlas Ramirez]

Hey listen e[COLOR=var(--tw-prose-body)]xcessive thinning of paint can reduce its sheen due to a decrease in solids content and altered reflective surface.[/COLOR]

[John TenEyck]

Sounds good. I really do appreciate all the help.

I was talking to someone the other day that had experience painting with turbines. He told me that too much thinning decreases the sheen


Have you experienced this? Like more than 10 percent will go from gloss to semi, etc.

I think that is true, Andrew, but I never spray gloss so I can't say for sure.

I'm still mystified as to why the finish won't flow out for you if the Extender keeps it wet for 15 minutes. Makes no sense to me, but neither does quantum physics.

If you look at a new gun, I would strongly consider something besides a turbine. A turbine will never give you the flexibility that a pressure fed conversion gun running off a compressor has. And if you plan to spray a lot of high viscosity products, an airless rig is probably the best option.

John