Old(Vintage) vs. New Tools?

[Steve Mathews]

Simple question ... are there new hand tools better than tools of yesterday? And in reverse are there old tools better than what's being made today? For example, it's my understanding that Lie Nielsen's hand planes, which apparently were patterned after the Stanley Bedrock planes are better in quality. On the other hand it's my new found understanding that vintage hand saws, i.e Disston, Simmonds, etc. are better in quality than what is currently available by the limited number of makers today.

[Jim Koepke]

Many of the tools today are made using better methods and better machinery.

The Lie Nielsen planes have what people refer to as a "better fit and finish." Examples of this are noticed in the blade's depth adjuster not having the backlash that is notorious with the Stanley planes. Also on almost all of my Stanley/Bailey planes the lateral adjuster lever is free to move on its own if the plane is tilted side to side. It will not change the adjustment, but to some it is annoying.

If a Lie Nielsen plane accidentally falls to the floor it will not break. If a Stanley falls to the floor, you should consider yourself lucky if it doesn't break.

As far as old tools being better than what is available today, how many modern makers of braces are offering a brace with 6, 8, 12 or 14 inch swing? To my knowledge it is none.

Try finding a good quality egg beater drill like this:

Finished #5-1:2 Eggbeater Drill.jpg

This is a two speed Goodell Pratt that is now my go to eggbeater style drill.

Another one, a Millers Falls #2A is also often used:

Brace Storage.jpg

It is seen here on the left.

Right next to it is a corner brace, not many of those made today if any.

When it comes to saws, there is a wide field to consider.

If the conversation turns to dovetail saws or other joinery saws my opinion is some of those made today may have characteristics making them better than what was available 100 years ago. Though many of the old tools can still take care of business.

The difference in larger handsaws is the older saws may have been taper ground which is something many find advantageous. This is handy for me since a lot of my work is done in firs and pine that tend to be not as dry as hardwoods. The softer woods often swell when being cut and can stop a non-tapper ground saw in its tracks.

For some, it is a matter of opinion as to which, old or new, is better for some things there is no comparison since the market may not be big enough to introduce a quality item such as a brace with a 6" swing.

jtk

[steven c newman]

One other thing to think about...the only difference between a BedRock and a Bailey....in in the way one adjusts the frog...and once the frog is set...no real differences between the two lines from Stanley......Millers Falls plane are on par with the rest of the makers, as long as they have that 2 piece lever cap (Have never had "chatter" from these planes)

Back in the "day", IF a plane maker was putting out better planes than Stanley was ( Ohio, Union,etc) Stanley would soon buy them out....make those planes until the already parts ran out, then close the doors.

North Brothers? Before or after Stanley bought them out....

Goodell Pratt Co.? Before or after Millers Falls bought them...(1931 or so)

Once you have picked up an older Disston saw by the handle, you will find you just can't let go....handle will almost feel like it was made to fit YOUR hand. Disston also made their own steel, and Patented it. Atkins was another to watch for....Simonds....And, IF you can find them, Richardson.

[Steve Mathews]

.... Once you have picked up an older Disston saw by the handle, you will find you just can't let go....handle will almost feel like it was made to fit YOUR hand. Disston also made their own steel, and Patented it. Atkins was another to watch for....Simonds....And, IF you can find them, Richardson.

And would I be equally served and pleased with a new Bad Axe hand saw aside from the increased cost?

[Jim Koepke]

And would I be equally served and pleased with a new Bad Axe hand saw aside from the increased cost?

Can't answer that since a Bad Axe saw has never been in my hands. Though I can say one of my most pleasing saws to use is a dovetail saw made from a kit purchased from Ron Bontz:

j Sawing Tails.jpg

The handle was made by me from a piece of scrap rosewood.

Next to that a Veritas 14ppi dovetail saw bought for my grandson was so impressive a 20ppi version was bought for myself.

jtk

[Chuck Hill]

I can only speak to Veritas planes. I have several and several more old Stanley planes. While I like the aesthetics of the Stanley more, I lie using the Veritas more. And you don't have to fiddle around trying to fettle an old plane when you don't even know how. The geometry made my head hurt.

I'd expect that most / all of the boutique saw makers (Bad Axe is just one of several) are as good as vintage saws, if not better.

[Steve Mathews]

...
I'd expect that most / all of the boutique saw makers (Bad Axe is just one of several) are as good as vintage saws, if not better.

What are some of the others? I've only heard of Bad Axe.

[Tom M King]

For backsaws yes. I didn't know the boutique saw makers were making handsaws, but I haven't really looked. I haven't bought a new backsaw in over 35 years. I'm not saying the old backsaws are better, but I've just had all I need for a long time that are plenty good enough.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Have to agree about the quality of Disston handsaws from the 1870s-1928. In my opinion none better, although one of my favorites is a Simonds 20” 10ppi panel saw. I own 2 Bad Axe backsaws - Sash and Tenon. Excellent saws, but so are a couple of old Disstons and an Adria dovetail. My favorite backsaw is an Independence dovetail prior to Lie-Nielsen’s acquisition. What with the price increases since I bought mine, if I were to purchase a Bad Axe today I’d wait for one of their sales. Even then, I’d have to be financially comfortable and give it a lot of thought before pulling the trigger.

As for handplanes, opinions will differ. I have many LN planes that I think are superior to any older Stanleys, mostly because they come work ready (as opposed to potentially hours of fettling) and the irons and chip breakers are of much better quality. That is not to infer that a properly tuned Stanley won’t be a great user. I just prefer to work with my planes, not on them.

However, when it comes to spokeshaves, there is no comparison. Modern LN Boggs, Veritas and wooden makers (Caleb James, Dave’s Shaves, and the no longer produced Woodjoy) leave their ancestors in the dust. I have improved the performance of some old Stanleys by adding a Hock iron, but still reach for my Boggs shaves unless they’re not appropriate for the job.

[Jonathan Pace]

Many tools today are created with improved technologies and machines. Meaning you have to put less work into creating something. Spending a fair amount of money on proper tools is more essential than settling for cheaper options that let you down, break, or degrade faster.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...AVERAGE time in my shop...from when an old Stanley arrives in my shop..to when it is "work ready"......90 minutes.

I find that the ones who complain about all the "hours of drudgery" actually have no clue as how to actually do the tasks needed to get a vintage plane ready to work. ( and I either just sit and roll my eyes, or LMAO...)
From this..
April Rust Hunt, Low Angle plane .JPG
Stanley No. 65 ..to..
Stanley 65 , front .JPG
Next to a Stanley No. 60-1/2...took a grand total of....45 minutes. $15 Low angle block plane.

Backsaw that is currently in use at the moment as a Dovetail saw....is a Jackson 12" 14ppi backsaw....that was a secondary line, compared to my Disston No.4, 14", 9ppi

All depends on how much wants to spend on a tool to work...wood....I generally by mine to put them to work....and not as a "Well my (Brand X) tool can..." Do you want to work, or just brag how much the tools cost you?

"A very poor worker blames his tools.." Is it the tool, or....the skill (or lack of) the one using a tool?

For all those who do not like the Chinese imports....bear in mind that 99% of the vintage tools out there, were made right here in the USA. Others you MIGHT find were made in England.

All the Vintage tools were indeed made with the best machinery of the times...otherwise, they would not still be around today. Because nobody bought the "Bad" stuff, more than once(looking at you, steel frog plane..)As they soon went out of business. Or started to make Toasters instead...

BTW..the No.65 was made around 1906.....

[Scott Winners]

At the end of the day, time is money and climate is rust.

I live near 65 degrees north latitude. I have (minimum) 90 days annually where the daytime temps are above freezing, the night time temps are below freezing and tools stored in a not climate controlled environment get condensation on themselves, twice daily, for how ever many years.

My bench planes are all Baileys (careful shopping) as I can buy them cheap enough and rehab them quickly enough to feel like I am ahead. All of my joinery planes are all LV or LN. My chisels are a mixed bag of vintage, LV and LN. All of my in use back saws are LV. I took my vintage backsaws to my blacksmith a few years ago and he laughed at me. My handsaws are all vintage because we simply don't make them that well anymore.

Where you land on this spectrum depends very much on how much free time you got, how much money you got, and how you feel about doing metal work when your hobby is woodworking. The only wrong answer here is hoping to get something in tool quality without having paid for it with either time or $ invested.

[David Carroll]

I have a smattering of new, fine tools, but mostly old vintage ones. I appreciate that the LN planes were essentially ready to go with just a final honing. The old Stanleys needed a fair bit of work to get into fine fettle. But you only have to do it once. Then the difference is negligible, at least I don't notice much difference. In my opinion, folks spend too much time flattening soles. If the toe, the mouth, and the heel are coplanar, the plane will work fine. What does make a real difference is the frog being seated well and the blade being dead flat against it from where the lever clamps down to the cutting edge, and that the cap iron is well fitted.

I once bought an old No. 5 from an antique dealer. No matter how sharp the blade was, the plane chattered and skipped. It was basically unusable. This likely accounts for the great condition of the plane. It just never had worked well enough to bother with. I had it for years before I sat down to figure out what was wrong with it. The sole was reasonably flat, the cap iron took some adjustment, but not much and it didn't improve performance much. The frog casting was rough and the plane did work better when I dressed it a bit, but again, not much.

What I discovered was the iron was warped! Not much, but it was concave as it sat in the plane, end-to-end. The clamping action of the lever cap lifted the cutting edge off of the frog by about a couple of thous. Switching to an aftermarket iron fixed it. Just for Ss and Gs I reground the blade on the other side. This now made the iron convex as it sat and the lever cap clamp forced the iron against the frog. It worked fine. I use the aftermarket blade (Hock as I recall) in it now, and the old, now ground upside-down iron sits in a drawer. One day some future owner will wonder what idiot ground it upside-down. It was me.

But if I didn't by chance notice this, I'd have spent an awful lot of time trying to fix a plane that was, except for the iron, just fine. So the moral is that any plane can be made to work well if you invest the time, but sometimes the fix is a relatively simple issue.

[steven c newman]

A lot of the "chatter would usually mean the frog was too far forward...leaving no support behind the iron where it comes out through the sole....there IS a small ramp at the back of the mouth opening....that is where the iron is supposed to rest on...and..the face of the frog needs to align with that ramp....as these planes were designed to be set up.

Too many move the frog as far forward as they can ( to get that Narrow Mouth Myth) and then blame the iron for the "chatter"....

Also..the main culprit behind those curved irons? Frog is too far back...edge of the iron is clamped down to that ramp....but this leaves a gap before the iron can rest on the frog...clamped down like this for a few decades, I would get a curve, too...

All I need to do, is use a straightedge ( or a fingertip) to make sure the ramp and the frog are coplanar....end of chatter.
Spoon Tray 4, jointed .JPG
A Stanley No. 4-1/2c, type 11..with original iron and chipbreaker...jointing Ash...and later on..
Spoon Tray 4, almost there .JPG
As a smoother...nice when the wood gets a shine to it...and is flat and smooth...and NO chatter marks to be found..

That plane could produce those "see-through" shavings,,,but...I want the task done in less than an hour....

[Rafael Herrera]

Since you flipped the iron the point may be mute, but the length of the iron along the slot is not hardened, it can be bent.

Also, if your iron is of the laminated steel kind, the other side is not tool steel. It won't take nor keep an edge.