[OP]
Contributor
Wiliam, I am not concerned that the case will fail. I have made others like this at least a dozen years in the past, and those are just fine. I will report on this in a dozen years
Regardless of your view on the video, it is important to recognise that none of the joints tested failed on the glue line. None. The wood failed first.
What really differentiated the examples was the direction of the wood grain of the boards, not the nature of the grain type being glued.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
Derek,
hide glue is brittle, if your piece experiences a drop or hard impact, the glue joint may fail. I've seen the claims about strong endgrain glue joints, but I think they use PVA. I would use this joint on small boxes, but on larger pieces maybe some reinforcement or mitered dovetails would ensure the integrity of the joint.
Contributor
Originally Posted by Derek Cohen
Derek, you do good work. You are an asset to the forum. We all make mistakes ( well, maybe not Warren or Charles ). As a psychologist you realize it is difficult to say one has made a mistake and is wrong. I admit I am wrong at times. It does not feel good. Retract the above statements. And move on.
[OP]
Contributor
Okay guys. This is now badgering. Move on.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
I dont know what they are, but they look great.
Contributor
I'm apparently in the minority that was very impressed with the results from the tests in the video. William, you're being very excessive in your opinion of the video and the technique Derek used for his joinery. I can't imagine watching this video and not learning something from it. Prior to watching I would never feel comfortable creating a box joined like Derek's without adding splines or something similar to aid in glue adhesion. Thanks to the YouTube algorithm I was sent down a rabbit hole of similar videos claiming the unexpected strength of end grain glue ups. As Derek has mentioned, the miter is NOT an end grain glue up and does add a small amount of long grain. This doesn't seem to necessarily matter as the strength of the glue bond will be more than enough strength in most applications. This is assuming that you add enough glue so as not to have a glue starved joint, which is very common when dealing with end grain. Glue sizing should def help with this technique. I now would be more than comfortable building a similar mitered box without splines and rely on the strength of the glue. This is especially true in the application these cases will be used. This has inspired me to make a test version and see what kind of abuse it would withstand. I have no doubt that I would be able to stand on this case without any issues, if that's the case than how much stronger does it need to be?
[OP]
Contributor
Thank you George. Thank you Tony.
Hopefully, this is the last post I need to make on this topic. Just for the doubters
Go to the 25’ mark …
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l_w_or3KhH4
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
Derek,
First off, I am sorry my question ended up leading to somewhat “passionate” exchange of opinions.
My takeaway is that there is certainly some strength in these joints without mechanical joinery and depending on the use case, that may be sufficient for a given piece.
In fact, before I knew better (and had the skills for better joinery) my first drawers were simple rabbet corner joints with a glued bottom. After over 20 years none of those failed yet as they are not heavily loaded or used very frequently.
Thank you for sharing your builds and thought process.
[OP]
Contributor
Thank you for your comment, Frank. As I explained to another, I could have said more. I didn't, which is my bad. I was already not happy that the thread had been derailed along such negative lines.
What could have been said was this - and I feel now that it is my duty to clear up any misconceptions about the joinery here:
What Patrick's video demonstrated was that glue is stronger than wood. Most of us have known this for many years. But that does not mean that it is a satisfactory substitute for joinery. At the same time, one does not need to use extreme joinery for everything. It is relevant to differentiate "stressed" from "non-stressed" joints. Panels being glued up are non-stressed. If someone adds biscuits or dominos, it is not for strength; it is for alignment. The glue alone should suffice. See the last video I posted, by Rob Cosman. He shows just how strong the glue join really is ... all 200 lbs of him!
The same situation is present in the mitres for these cases. The only possible stress is from the atmosphere, and I believe that this is negated by the fact that the wood is consistent and the grain of the boards joined are, essentially, coplanar. Will the glue breakdown? Sure, eventually ... in a 100 or so years. Look at vintage furniture using hide glue. These pieces are not intended to last 100 or more years. Fashion will see to that. So ... okay for this situation, not-okay for stressed joinery.
With regard to mitres and biscuits et al, a big reason they are used is to prevent movement when glueing up. Glue is slippery and a misaligned mitre is ugly. Glueing a mitred joint is tricky. The tape method I used here is fantastic for alignment, better than anything else out there. And easy.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Last edited by Derek Cohen; 05-05-2023 at 1:53 AM.
Contributor
Derek, I agree that glue can be sufficient in some miter joints. I glued this miter joint 22 years ago with hide glue and it still looks good.
miter.jpg
I am not sure if hand tool woodworkers reinforced miter joints historically ( before 1830 ). Perhaps larger ones? Mark
Contributor
I agree with your comments that miters glued without any reinforcing are fine for many cases. What I object to is the comment that end grain glue joints are twice as strong as long-grain glue joints. When I was early in woodworking I learned from experience that end grain to end grain is a very weak joint. Anyone can test this for themselves.
I agree that biscuits or dominos in long grain glue-up don't add anything to the strength of the joint. But they do add strength to any end grain joint, including miters. Again, anyone can test this for themselves. Glue two pieces of wood together in a miter joint (end grain), let the glue cure well, then clamp one piece down to your bench and hit the other with a mallet. It will come apart.
Do the same thing with a biscuit or small domino in the miter. You will experience the increased strength of the joint.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
[OP]
Contributor
Mike, if you plan to hammer on a glued mitre joint verses a reinforced mitre joint, all you are demonstrating is the strength in a non-stressed verses a stressed situation. The mitres in the cases above fall into the non-stressed category. So, while I agree that you can strengthen a mitre joint with biscuits or dominos or splines, what I have been saying here is that it is unnecessary in a simple mitred case such as those here.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Contributor
You left out the first part of my comment:
+++++++++
I agree with your comments that miters glued without any reinforcing are fine for many cases. What I object to is the comment that end grain glue joints are twice as strong as long-grain glue joints. When I was early in woodworking I learned from experience that end grain to end grain is a very weak joint. Anyone can test this for themselves.
+++++++++
You and I agree that an unreinforced miter joint will work in certain situations. We appear to disagree that an end grain joint is twice as strong as a long grain joint.
If you look at commercial people, such as the people who make wooden base molding, you'll see that they often glue smaller pieces to make longer pieces. Note how that material is glued - they cut the ends into fingers that fit together so that the joint is more long grain to long grain than end grain to end grain. If end grain joints were stronger they would not do that.
Mike
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 05-05-2023 at 5:20 PM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
It took me a while to realize what bothered me about this thread. It is not that glued miters might or might not be strong enough for the application. The real anomaly here is that Derek has made a case WITHOUT a couple dozen flawlessly executed secret miter dovetails in a nearly-impossible-to-work species. What is the world coming to ...
Very attractive work with some wonderful explanations. Thanks Derek.
Contributor
I don't think this notion of stressed/non-stressed categories is an assurance of the longevity of a piece of furniture. Accidents happen, moving one of these pieces from one place to another and a strong impact could be enough to shatter the glue line. Glue alone may be enough to get the piece assembled, but in my opinion it is a shortcut.
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