Preferred micrometer for determining saw set?

[Ryan van Nood]

Howdy folks, I'm diving into teaching myself how to restore, sharpen, and set saws and I understand that I want to create the minimal amount of set I can get away with in order to make the smallest (and least labor intensive) kerf possible. This excellent tutorial suggests using a micrometer to determine a width 20-30% wider than the blade: https://www.vintagesaws.com/library/.../spring97.html

Do you folks have a preferred type of micrometer or method of determining set for a saw you've never sharpened?

Part of my question stems from being daunted by the entire world of saws, etc. I have picked up an old Disston Monarch saw set and don't really understand how it works, but I wager that I can set myself on the right direction by understanding at least what I'm shooting for thanks to the aforementioned handy article.

Cheers!

[Jim Koepke]

Mine is a dial caliper that measures down to 0.001" that wasn't too expensive on ebay.

The digital calipers seem unnecessary to me. None of my electronic devices have met the test of time like my mechanical devices have.

jtk

[Ryan van Nood]

That makes sense. I don't want a digital one either because I don't want to deal with batteries and they always have more plastic parts. I just discovered the mitutoyo 193-111, which is cool because it has mechanical digits, which has the convenient readability of a digital caliper but without the electronics. I might see look for a used one as that's rather far beyond my budget...

[Tom M King]

The minimum amount of set is not just to clear the plate, but to allow for steering the saw in the cut, and cleaning off any extra left past the line on the backstroke. I would rather have a little more than the absolute minimum. I almost never measure it, but just look and test cut. If it looks right, it usually is.

[Charles Guest]

How would one go about setting saw teeth to three or more decimal places of accuracy? If you can't, then what good is measuring it?

[Warren Mickley]

I have sharpened saws since 1974, and never used a micrometer. I never heard of a woodworker doing this.

In practice, we add set when the the saw binds too easily in the cut. If by chance we give a little too much set, it is no matter; we just don't set the saw for the next sharpening. In practice we don't set the saw every time, just when it needs it. You want your set to be in response to how the saw performs, not according to some chart.

[Tom M King]

I do the same sort of measuring that Warren does. I did measure an 8" 20 point little dovetail saw once, but don't remember any of the measurements. I just remember doing it for curiosity for that little saw but it gets used almost never anyway.

[Derek Cohen]

Ryan, I take the same approach as Warren does. What I might suggest is, if you wish to experiment, that you use Mike Wenzloff’s technique of setting the set: place a layer of paper over the set teeth and tap or squeeze the plate until the teeth penetrate the paper. The paper acts as a depth stop and so limits the amount of set. Now different paper has different thickness. I use tape to do this, and these vary in thickness as well. Measure the thickness of the paper, not the teeth. The reason for using the paper method is to even up the set.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chuck Hill]

Here is a video illustrating what Derek is suggesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKUsWFYbwA

If you do decide that you want a micrometer, you can find a lot of cheap ones like this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32838805173.html

Most are metric, if you want imperial then digital is about the only option. I bought one before seeing that Mike Wenzloff video. That seems like a much more repeatable way to get a consistent set. You can find decent machinist's vices for a reasonable price. While not perfect they are good enough for this. You will also find ones that are rather expensive indeed.

[Ryan van Nood]

Unexpected answers are the best reason to venture asking questions. Thanks so much folks, I'll play with set and give Wenzloff's method a try for making the set even.

[Ryan van Nood]

Follow up--does using Wenzloff's method rule out sharpening before setting? What are opinions regarding the order of sharpening and setting? Perhaps that should be an independent thread.

[Charles Guest]

Follow up--does using Wenzloff's method rule out sharpening before setting? What are opinions regarding the order of sharpening and setting? Perhaps that should be an independent thread.

If you analyze this, as a pure thought exercise, you'll pretty much come to the conclusion that handsaws couldn't possibly ever work. Well, of course they do and will. Point is: don't overthink it, though it does require some thought and analysis.

Peen the set out of a cheap saw, or squeeze the set out in a machinist's vice with smooth jaws until the saw has essentially zero set (but not actually completely gone). It doesn't take much pressure and only squeeze at the toothline. It's best of you leave just enough set in so that you can tell which direction each tooth was originally bent. Never go against this direction, especially on an older saw, as the plate is often harder and therefore more brittle. Then set your saw set on its smallest setting. Then set the saw afresh. See if it'll saw to your satisfaction in a species or two of wood you're most likely to use.

If the saw needs sharpening, do it after you've set it. This exercise is best done on a saw that's already acceptably sharp. What you're trying to do is establish whether your saw set, on a minimal setting, puts too much set into a saw and if it is imparting an acceptably consistent set. If it's just a hair more set than you'd like, then side dressing the teeth a few strokes with a file could help, as it will a saw that's running to one side, but don't worry about that yet. Just go through the process I outlined and see what happens. Don't try to fix or anticipate problems you may never have.

Here's the catch and caveat to everything I just wrote, and it's sort of a biggie: you have to be an experienced sawyer to tell if any of this works exactly as it's supposed to. A benchmark in the form of saws that have been sharpened and set by somebody you're sure knows what they're doing is almost a non-negotiable. Words and pretty pictures on the internet won't do it. You need saws, in hand, with which to compare your own efforts. Becoming a saw doctor is not a cheap endeavor. You're going to invest a lot time and a fair amount of money doing so if your goal is to bring train wrecks back to life.

[Ryan van Nood]

Thank you for that sage advice, Charles. I'll get to work!

[David Carroll]

Do you folks have a preferred type of micrometer or method of determining set for a saw you've never sharpened?

Coming from a machinist's background, I have a lot of machinist's tools, including micrometers and various calipers. I agree with those who say that measuring saw set down to a thousandth of an inch is unnecessary, and overkill. But I am so used to grabbing a dial caliper and measuring stuff that I do it without thinking. I look at the dial and I instantly know the measurement, because I'm accustomed to it. Like telling the time with an analog watch. I glance at it and I know what time it is. I don't have to say "oh its 10:15." I just know it. Same way as I see the caliper scale and dial reading 0.032-inch and I know it's just over 1/32-inch.

Because I am accustomed to doing it, I do it when I am working wood. I certainly don't need to, but it's the way I am used to. If I were not used to it, I wouldn't go out and buy a dial caliper and learn to use it, just for this use. So my recommendation is to use Mike Wenzloff's paper trick (though he is not correct in his assertion that paper doesn't compress. It's an open matrix of cellulose fibers, it compresses. But it compresses consistently, so even if it compresses by 25% (it doesn't) with a thickness of +/- 0.003-inches to start, we're still left with 2-1/4" thou, or just under 0.005" for total set.

Still, I think that owning precision measuring equipment not a bad idea for other reasons, for general shop use I would use a dial caliper instead of a micrometer. I find them much handier in general. They can be used as a depth gauge, for measuring holes, and for measuring drill bits, once you've buggered the shaft and can't read the marking on the butt end any more. Dial calipers are not expensive anymore, unless you buy Starrett or any of the other premium makes. I find them a valuable tool. Micrometers are good yes, but in a limited thickness range. There is a learning curve to get the pressure just right, unless you get a ratcheting micrometer. For measuring something like saw teeth it's fiddley because the mic's anvil is small and you cant really measure a broad area, like you can with a dial caliper.

I'd steer clear of Vernier calipers, unless you really want to learn how to read them. Not difficult, but takes some getting used to.

Good luck!

DC

[Jim Koepke]

Ryan, Charles describes a process that in many cases is much more work than necessary.

Pete Taran has a great tutorial on saw sharpening that you have already found at Vintage Saws dot com. Pete knows saws and is a well known source in the world of woodworking saws.

Many saws found in the wild already have plenty of set. For me it has always been easier to start by filing and setting afterward if the saw binds while cutting.

There are a multitude of saw sets floating around. Some are made for large teeth and some for small teeth. Some are made to work a wide range of teeth.

jtk