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Thread: Auction Shaper - T45 Griggio

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Sankovich View Post
    1)
    2) How do I take off the saw blade? Anyway to brake the motor w/o electricity?

    The spindle lock needs to be engaged



    4) There is another lever on the side panel that goes to a cable line (beefy version of a rear derailleur cable) that is disconnected. It's a really long cable. It's from the lever on the upper left called Libro / Free. Is this used to stop the arbor from spinning?

    Yes that was the spindle lock, it looks broken. That pin end of the cable should be mounted in the quill.
    I keep hoping that the arbor is going to be use-able, but since the spindle lock is not attached, I'm assuming they are using pliers. Going by the rest of the machine I'm starting to believe I'll need a new arbor... I'm looking forward to removing the saw blade and seeing what my arbor looks like.

  2. #32
    No reason to assume the worst on a machine of that quality. Some monkey probably broke the spindle lock cable connection and no one ever fixed it would be my guess. This is often what you get with an auction machine - someone else’s neglected problems, but the good news is that it’s maybe an easier fix than you think and it’s worth fixing, especially for the price you paid

    It would be a good idea to check the runout on the spindle with a dial indicator and magnetic base (ideally with no cutters or spacers on the shaft and the indicator tip directly touching spindle shaft)...just to see what you’re working with and if there is an issue with spindle runout. I don’t know what the gold standard is for this in terms of tolerances but I like to see 0.001” of total movement or less on a machine like that that could be swinging pretty large / beefy cutters
    Still waters run deep.

  3. #33
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    I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

    I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

    Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by andrew whicker View Post
    I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

    I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

    Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.
    No, the indicator test is not dependent on the spindle being square to the table. To check for square, clamp a 12" straightedge between spacers on the spindle and rotate it, checking for clearance to the table with feeler gauges. If it is significantly off you should be able to shim the quill housing under the table.

    You may be able to fix the spindle lock cable with bicycle brake parts. That worked for me on an SCMI 110.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    No, the indicator test is not dependent on the spindle being square to the table. To check for square, clamp a 12" straightedge between spacers on the spindle and rotate it, checking for clearance to the table with feeler gauges. If it is significantly off you should be able to shim the quill housing under the table.

    You may be able to fix the spindle lock cable with bicycle brake parts. That worked for me on an SCMI 110.
    Oh right. Because I'm only measuring movement from one side. Man, losing my machine shop brain.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by andrew whicker View Post
    I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

    I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

    Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.
    What you're looking for is a way to "tram" the head. It's something commonly done on machines like vertical milling machines etc, to make sure the spindle is perpendicular to the plane of the table. It will be a bit of a pain on your abused table, but many folks take two straight edges and clamp them on opposite sides of the spindle between two spacers. Snug is all you need, no need to go full grunt on the top nut, and then using an indicator attached to one of the straightedges downwards touching the table you spin it around 360 to see what the readings say. You will bump up and over surface imperfections so you'll just have to get a sense of the general lay of the table. I would check the spindle runout first because the spindle will affect the tramming more than the tramming will affect the spindle reading, but both are important. If you find run out on the spindle you can remove it, clean all the mating surfaces in the quill assembly and reinstall to check again. If it's still there, you can remove the spindle and set it in some machinists "V" blocks to verify if it's the spindle itself or the quill. I will see if I can find instructions on this , I know they're out there, but if you have a machinist friend, they would know all about this. A good set of steps on a new machine.
    Last edited by brent stanley; 03-22-2023 at 11:06 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    What you're looking for is a way to "tram" the head. It's something commonly done on machines like vertical milling machines etc, to make sure the spindle is perpendicular to the plane of the table. It will be a bit of a pain on your abused table, but many folks take two straight edges and clamp them on opposite sides of the spindle between two spacers. Snug is all you need, no need to go full grunt on the top nut, and then using an indicator attached to one of the straightedges downwards touching the table you spin it around 360 to see what the readings say. You will bump up and over surface imperfections so you'll just have to get a sense of the general lay of the table. I would check the spindle first because the spindle will affect the tramming more than the tramming will affect the spindle reading, but both are important. If you find run out on the spindle you can remove it, clean all the mating surfaces in the quill assembly and reinstall to check again. If it's still there, you can remove the spindle and set it in some machinists "V" blocks to verify if it's the spindle itself or the quill. I will see if I can find instructions on this , I know they're out there, but if you have a machinist friend, they would know all about this. A good set of steps on a new machine.
    And because this is a tilting machine it's really only important to have the spindle in "in tram" parallel to the axis of the tilt. The perpendicular axis can and will be adjusted with the tilting mechanism.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Sankovich View Post
    And because this is a tilting machine it's really only important to have the spindle in "in tram" parallel to the axis of the tilt. The perpendicular axis can and will be adjusted with the tilting mechanism.
    If you're going through the effort, I would be inclined to try and have vertical as indicated on the machine be in fact vertical whether by adjusting the quill/table or by tweaking the indicator if needed, but verifying that it stays that way through it's course of movement would be a really good idea too. I believe I've seen instructions in old machine manuals for how to do this.

  9. #39
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    To get spindle 90 to the table look for "tramming a bridgeport head". Make up a bar like the photo from ebay but the center hole large enough to go onto your spindle. Easier to make it accurate if you use only one dial indicator.
    The longer the bar the more it will multiply any defiance but too long and things may hang up in miter grooves.
    Bill D.
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    Last edited by Bill Dufour; 03-22-2023 at 11:25 AM.

  10. #40
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    to check for 90° I just use a good 12” metal ruler and clamp it on edge between two spacers on the spindle then measure with a dial micrometer at several places between it and the table as I rotate the spindle by hand. When checking run out on the spindle it doesn’t really matter if it’s 90° or not. You’re using a dial indicator stuck to the table with the tip against the spindle again rotating by hand.
    Steve Jenkins, McKinney, TX. 469 742-9694
    Always use the word "impossible" with extreme caution

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent stanley View Post
    If you're going through the effort, I would be inclined to try and have vertical as indicated on the machine be in fact vertical whether by adjusting the quill/table or by tweaking the indicator if needed, but verifying that it stays that way through it's course of movement would be a really good idea too. I believe I've seen instructions in old machine manuals for how to do this.
    Yeah, that's my thought as well. I was wondering when I'll "know" the arbor is 90 to the table. There is a sight glass, but that's only going to be so accurate. I still haven't plugged it in yet. I need to run some power to it first.

  12. #42
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    An easy way to check 90 to the table is a trusted square and a thin feeler gauge. Feeler gauge and straight edge work good for tramming also. I just clamp a straight edge between spindle spacers. And use another spacer to check between the table and straight edge.
    to measure runout you will need a dial indicator and mag base.
    I set up a new Griggio 45 a few years ago. I believe it had a adjustable bolt for a stop at 90 degrees.

  13. #43
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    Very nice shaper. Download the Aigner safety accessories catalog, they build exceptional accessories for shapers, saws, etc.

  14. #44
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    A little update. A friend and I found the spot where this control cable is supposed to go into the spindle to act as the spindle lock! Good news. Now I can "manually" lock the machine and have found the broken thread.

    Semi bad news.. I can't find a replacement yet by Google so I think I'll be sending this to a Control Cable manufacturer and have them build me a new one. Would be nice to come up with a better cable routing. The harsh bend that was designed in is why the cable housing is so destroyed in the one area. Not sure how to fix that or if it is worth it...

    20230401_132129.jpg
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  15. #45
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    Motors, wiring and 3 phase trouble shooting

    So, Sunday / today have been spent in the continual brain teaser called 3 phase power (for me). After discussing w/ an experienced electrician, PhD electrical engineer, Googling, and lots of solo problem solving I think I'm finally back on track.

    The machine has two motors: One is the 9 HP single speed spindle motor. The other is a 1/2 HP single speed motor. Both are 3 Phase motors. The small motor is for raising / lowering the spindle and tilting the spindle. You have to hold a lever down while it works, it shuts off after you release.

    So... the small motor was humming but not making any movement. I switched between no load, spindle height, and spindle tilt in short bursts. The last short burst let the magic smoke out.

    My shop has Delta 3 Phase power at 220v (most are 208v, but for some reason my measures 220v). I think most newer 3 Phase power is Wye. Feel free to Google around, but the Delta system has a 3rd leg that is higher voltage than the other legs when measured from leg to neutral. Wye allows all the legs to read the same voltage leg to neutral. Both types measure the same voltage drop between legs. I also think Wye = Gamma but must have been changed to "Y" because Gamma looks like an upside down "Y". (https://hvacrschool.com/podcasts/sin...ained-podcast/)

    When you have Delta you can NOT accidently use the 3rd leg for anything but 3 phase power or else you will send 208 v (220v in my case) single phase to whatever you are plugged into. Hence why the Wye is more popular.

    My first thought was, "Oh Man, I just fed a single phase 110 v motor the wrong power and fried it!". Turns out I didn't do anything wrong. I think instead the motor had no way to breathe. It has been submerged in saw dust for so long that I think the fan was probably stuck or could move enough air to keep it cool. So I think I probably over heated it enough to melt some insulation. I also think the motor was probably done for before it came into my hands. I do wish I took the time to remove it, completely clean it, etc. Re-install before running. Oh well. Life happens.

    The big motor fired up just fine. However, the name plate is a bit confusing and definitely confused me for a bit. So a little more Googling and it turns out that most 3 phase motors have at least two different ways to wire them (low voltage and high voltage). However, unlike the other 3 phase motors I've run into this one didn't have a schematic on how to wire it for either. So I was a bit concerned because it seemed to me from looking at the name plate that it needed 440v to operate at 9 HP while I could only give it 208v.

    BUT, it turns out V_delta is the same as wiring for low voltage and V_gamma is the same as wiring for high voltage. So now I just need to wire it up for low voltage and I'm good to go. (https://www.pumpsandsystems.com/moto...-wye-why-delta)

    So, now I'm going to either re-build this Italian small motor or I'm going to buy a new Baldor ($230) to replace it. So, feel free to ignore this thread, but it was a lot of fun to problem solve this stuff and learn more about 3 phase. I'm not an expert by any means and I could definitely be wrong about some things, but I'm pretty sure I have it mostly right.

    3 Phase Supply (Delta)
    Screenshot_20230403_091358_Chrome.jpg


    Nameplate _ Small Motor.
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    Small Motor _ Wired for High Voltage
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    Big Motor _ Nameplate
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    Big Motor _ Delta vs Gamma wiring per motor mfg website
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    My Panel w some personal touches : )
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    Safety First
    20230402_193517.jpg
    Last edited by andrew whicker; 04-03-2023 at 12:47 PM.

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