Trouble cutting a straight (plumb) line

[Edward Weber]

Been practicing my handsaw use for some dovetail work, and I can't for the life of me get a plumb straight cut. I am using a Japanese pull saw, watched a ton of videos, but my saw always veers to the right of the line for the rear of the work. Been changing the height of the work, my body placement, and my grip, and the rear cut trends to the right of the line - the front is OK.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Ray

I would just ask, are you better at it than you were last week? or last month?
If so, it might simply be a matter of more practice. You can certainly experiment with hand grip and all the other things mentioned above but what ever you do, it has to be comfortable to you or you'll never get there.
Japanese saws are great but just like western saws, once you get a "feel" for them, you're well on your way.
Keep at it, it doesn't come to everyone in the same timeframe.

[Tom M King]

I never think about how I’m holding any saw. That’s why I could never teach because I don’t think about that stuff.

I watch the cut line right at the teeth. If too many fuzzies are left by part of the last stroke, those are cleaned off during the backstroke in preparation for the next stroke.

Pull saws are not as easily controlled for that, to me, as Western saws.

[Thomas Wilson]

I have this problem. I believe that I have a tendency to twist the saw on the recovery stroke (in this case push stroke). I focus on the lines on pulling (cutting) stroke but then do not follow the exact same stroke on recovery widening the kerf ever so slightly. On the next pull stroke, I control the cut to follow the line on the front but the blade bends at the back of the cut to follow the widened kerf. I concentrate on not twisting on pull or push but it is very hard to feel the twist. Sometimes I get it right. Most times I get the David Barron saw guide out which helps immensely. I have a 90 degree guide for cross cuts as well as 1:6 guide for dovetails.

[Ray Bahr]

I can definitely follow the line(s) I am watching, tried position a mirror to watch the line in the back (cutting pins), but my setup was a bit off. I was worried about the interaction between the grain and the saw, but was uncertain what to do about it.

I have got a bit better with the practice, but This is not new to me , just been a while - been working in metal for a bit now, and want to start putting together a proper bench.

Thanks

Ray

[Luke Dupont]

Old timers taught a way...you held a square alongside the saw...to keep the saw cut vertical ( plumb) After a while and a bit of practice, you'd get to the point of no longer needing the square sitting there.

Of course, this was with using the "old fashioned" Western style saws....

I use this method with both Japanese and western saws. It really works / helps start the cut right.

Just be careful if you're using a metal square. You don't want to accidentally let the teeth rub against the metal square. I tend to use a wooden square that I made for this.

[Ray Bahr]

I use this method with both Japanese and western saws. It really works / helps start the cut right.

Just be careful if you're using a metal square. You don't want to accidentally let the teeth rub against the metal square. I tend to use a wooden square that I made for this.

This would be a good idea, but the lines are slanted - pins on a dove tail...

Ray

[Derek Cohen]

I don't agree at all about using a square to align the saw plate.

First of all, you rely here on judging whether you are square to the square's blade. And what if the square is not plumb?

Second, and most relevantly, accurate sawing is simply - and I mean SIMPLY - about sawing to a line. It is the case in all joinery. Learn to saw to a line and you can cut ANY joinery marked out.

Sawing to three lines will never work. As both Charles and I wrote earlier, saw to two lines and then turn the board and saw to another two lines.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

The OP said the cut always goes to the right. Can probably rule out grain. Must be technique. Some how warping the plate. Maybe placing a board flat on the bench facing the end and pulling the saw down. Then flip the board and cut to the line on the other side. You would likely do that with a long board. I’ve seen lots of techniques for this work equally between sawing to the line and sawing off the line and cleaning up with a chisel. The answer lies in not warping the plate or sawing off the line and cleaning up after.
Jim

[steven c newman]

There has been photos of Schoolboys learning in the "Manual Arts" class....sawing a board (cross cut) with a Large square propped up against the side of the saw's plate...He is sawing with one hand, and steadying with the other hand.

Most Carpenters with have their left thumb doing the same. And after you get about half way across the board in the cut...lower the hand, and allow most of the kerf to guide the saw...while you keep a grip on the off-cut...to support it.

[David Carroll]

Usually when my cuts drift, and it's not due to wild grain or poor saw set, it is because I am gripping the saw too tightly and am not lined up with the work properly. I find a low-ish bench helps because I can be more "on top" of the work, and I can see the top line and the front line. Or I can see the top and back line if I look over the work. When I was starting out I always drew guide lines front top and back of dovetails and tenons. Now after 45 years I don't draw the back line anymore (most of the time). Starting the cut is the most important thing IMO. I sometimes (in softer woods) put a nick down the end grain, along the scribed line and take out a flake in the corner so the saw has a spot to sit accurately when I slowly start the cut.

I start out really slowly and work the cut so I am cutting the top and back line first at a ~45-degree angle to the work. With Japanese saws being so thin and with yours having so little set, if you start off wrong, its hard to "steer" yourself back on track. If you start to drift off the line there's no room in the kerf to move the saw plate this way or that to correct the cut. A saw with more kerf allows more wiggle room to change course (a little). So that's why it's important to start out in the right place with your saw.

Once you do get started right, relax your grip and forearm, and concentrate on pulling the saw straight along the kerf you have already established. You should try this with two fingers, just pinching the saw and pulling it straight. Now focus on the front line as you continue to cut. The back should take care of itself, riding in the kerf you have already established at the back. If you don't fight the saw, it should follow the line.

But if you drift away from the line, no problem, just finish the cut and pare back to the line. If you drift into the line of course you need to stop and I generally turn the work around and repeat going very slowly. It seems overly complicated but once you get the hang of it, it becomes muscle-memory and you will automatically position yourself correctly without really even being aware that you are doing it.

I'm not a big fan of making endless practice cuts, but it may help at first to get a feel for how the saw cuts. Some drift naturally if they are set poorly and stoning (lightly) on the side the saw is drifting toward will help. Once the saw is tracking sweetly then just make boxes or drawers and get your practice making things. After a dozen or so you will get the hang of it.

Personally, I don't like Japanese pattern saws for dovetailing, I prefer Gent's saws for fine dovetails in thin stock and regular pistol gripped saws for larger stuff (1/2-inch thick and thicker).

Good luck, and don't get discouraged!

DC

[Phil Gaudio]

My experience suggests there is more of a tendency for this to happen with thin plate saws: I suspect you get less/different feedback regarding saw orientation in the cut, as compared to a .020 plate saw. You might also want to use some wax on the saw plate: it is sometimes surprising the ills this can remedy. I should add that I have exactly zero experience with Japanese saws.

[Ray Bahr]

Thanks folks,

Will try things mentioned.

Ray

[Derek Cohen]

The OP said the cut always goes to the right. Can probably rule out grain. Must be technique. Some how warping the plate. Maybe placing a board flat on the bench facing the end and pulling the saw down. Then flip the board and cut to the line on the other side. You would likely do that with a long board. I’ve seen lots of techniques for this work equally between sawing to the line and sawing off the line and cleaning up with a chisel. The answer lies in not warping the plate or sawing off the line and cleaning up after.
Jim

Jim, the OP said that the cut skewed on the reverse side of the board, and not the front. He has been attempting to saw straight down three sides. That is why the thin blade and the grain is the factor.

An analogy is using a cutting gauge to score a line. If you go deep immediately, the grain will take it. You need, instead, to take light strokes. Using a Japanese saw, you use light strokes and cut the minimum until you are assured that you are cutting to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Hmm..
4 corners, part 2, chosen saw .JPG
and...
4 corners, part 2, straight cuts .JPG
Done just this morning....
4 corners, Part 2, 2 saws .JPG
Was trying these two out...

[James Pallas]

Jim, the OP said that the cut skewed on the reverse side of the board, and not the front. He has been attempting to saw straight down three sides. That is why the thin blade and the grain is the factor.

An analogy is using a cutting gauge to score a line. If you go deep immediately, the grain will take it. You need, instead, to take light strokes. Using a Japanese saw, you use light strokes and cut the minimum until you are assured that you are cutting to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If I read correctly the OP said the rear always skews to the right. That would mean to me that every time he cut the grain was chasing to the right on the rear of every board otherwise it would chase left sometimes. My guess is that the OP is pulling the handle slightly towards his body with each back stoke warping the far side of the blade to the right. It does not take much. I experienced the same effect myself. I fixed it by changing my stance a bit and checking my arm and hand alignment with the saw. It is different than with a western saw maybe closer to a gents saw. I still have to think about it when using different saws. I know you have greater experience than I. I just remember the difficulty I had with a very similar lesson learned.
Jim