Trouble cutting a straight (plumb) line

[Luke Dupont]

Well that's one mans opinion, I personally find is offensive to criticize what others believe.
The Japanese to this day still preform a Jichinsai ceremony before putting up a building, I guess that's hokey too.

Did it ever occur to you that the tools, the materials available, the culture, and the philosophy, evolved in conjunction with one another over the centuries?

https://www.seattlejapanesegarden.or...rking-in-japan

“Japanese woodworkers traditionally worked on the floor, and pulling tools were preferred as it allowed the maker to generate more power from a seated position… The pull-stroke is one of the key differences between Western and Japanese woodworking. It is all-encompassing in its ramifications – in the anatomy of the tools, in how the tools are used and experienced, in what kind and size of wood can be processed, and in what information is fed back to the maker during use… the pull-stroke allows for more control, offers increased accuracy, requires less effort, and provides more nuanced feedback.”

I mean that it is likely a hokey interpretation added after the fact, perhaps in Western circles. I've never heard such an explanation given regarding pulling versus pushing by any Japanese person or craftsman here. Of course, it's possible that I just haven't encountered it yet.

The thing, though, is that there are extremely practical and pragmatic reasons that demand tools cut on the pull stroke when working on the floor, and so even if you do dig up some Japanese reference, I still will lean towards thinking that it's an embellishment/interpretation after the fact rather than the origin of the methods. There's just no particularly good way to do it on the push stroke, so I think that necessity is the ultimate mother of invention here.

I'm well aware of Jichinsai, Shinto-ism, and extremely well acquainted with Japanese language and culture. I'm not judging any of those things -- I'm quite accustomed to them and find them fascinating. FYI, my father-in-law is a Shinto priest.

My reason for commenting is that I'm one of probably not so many people here who has worked in this fashion (sitting on the floor as opposed to a bench) with Japanese tools quite extensively. I thought that perspective might offer worthwhile insight, so I offered it up for what it's worth. Take it or leave it as you like.

[Mike Soaper]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

[Edward Weber]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

This is an integral part of the evolution, as well as keeping the saw in tension when cutting, body mechanics, etc.

I added the more spiritual part, that I thought was a common understanding, because the belief system is intertwined into may things, including wood and those who work it.

I did not intend to have this go off the rails.

[Rafael Herrera]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

It'd difficult to assert if these saws were conceived thin from the beginning. It would not take much, after using them, to conclude that thinner plates are not detrimental. The scarcity of metals in Japan would have been an incentive for innovation, though.

However, that's not necessarily a general practice. They were not stingy in the manufacture of Maebiki Ooga saws, for example.

I have what I believe is a hand made large cross cut saw. The tang for the handle is pretty thick, the plate tapers to a thin width. It's waiting for a handle. The teeth are very large, it's probably intended for cutting branches, not something I do often.

20220903_120738.jpg

I don't see a problem with going off on a tangent once the issues the OP had were dealt with. I much rather learn something than get the usual arrogant dismisal, the name dropping, or the pushing of something to buy.

In the past (and not just eastern societies, but western too) ritual, symbolism, and supersticion were intimately associated to the daily lives of the population. However, do they constitute a big part of a Japanese woodworker practice nowadays? unlikely.

Thank you Jack Dover for the link to the Chinese carpentry book. It's going to the list of books to get.

[Jim Koepke]

This is an integral part of the evolution, as well as keeping the saw in tension when cutting, body mechanics, etc.

I added the more spiritual part, that I thought was a common understanding, because the belief system is intertwined into may things, including wood and those who work it.

I did not intend to have this go off the rails.

My question now is if it might be possible before WW II there was more ritual/spiritualism in the craft of woodworking than there was after the war. Many things changed in people's perceptions after the war.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

AFAIK
These saws were not wafer thin at inception, they went through an evolution in parallel with all the other ciltural, spiritual and economic forces to name a few.
At about the beginning of the Edo period, aroud 1600, Japan emerged from a century or more of war. Just about everything changed after that and much of what we might recognise as a Japanese saw came to be. Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en

As far as today's practices, here is just one example of a tree ceremony, and yes, they use a chainsaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfVU7Tilg-k

My comment that sparked some controversy was an expression of a Shinto belief of many traditional woodworkers, that the Kami that reside in the wood, must be treated with reverence, and not disrespected.
I can not find a word for word citation of my comment, which is no surprise to me.
Shinto has no official scripture or doctrine, it is a set of beliefs.
If you believe the wood is alive and has a spirit, that's what you believe.

Nakashima, I did not bring up his name, through I think the characterization of him was quite harsh. I say this as someone who was lucky enough to have met him, seen his work and shop as well, on many occasions in the 1980's
Also he wrote a book entitled The soul of a tree, so?

[steven c newman]

And..this helps the OP cut a straight line?

[Rafael Herrera]

AFAIK
These saws were not wafer thin at inception, they went through an evolution in parallel with all the other ciltural, spiritual and economic forces to name a few.
At about the beginning of the Edo period, aroud 1600, Japan emerged from a century or more of war. Just about everything changed after that and much of what we might recognise as a Japanese saw came to be. Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en

The Japanese trades, architecture, writing systems, etc. were in no small part imported from or influenced by China as early as the Chinese Qin dynasty (approx 200 BCE). The site you quote has a peculiar chronology, only acknowledging the 19th century Western influence.

The so often admired Japanese temple architecture derives from the Chinese pagoda, which in turn derives from the Indian stupa.

It would be interesting to know a better history of the woodworking trade in Japan, it certainly didn't develop in a vacuum.

[Jack Dover]

Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en

I was about to post this link and mention that the saw implied in this thread is relatively modern. It spread during Meiji, as well as many other things that most people think go back several hundred years.

Also, in the Takenaka Carpentry Museum there's an interesting exhibit: evolution of joinery over time. Apparently for most of the time (on the historical scale) joints were chopped, not sawn, they used something that looks like chouna. Sawn joinery appears somewhere close to the end of Edo period, and explodes in quality and complexity around that time, then simplified again with the advent of machines and modern connectors.

I was going to answer another comment, but will just put it here: we might never know why it was invented like this. It could be a combination of multiple factors. One thing we can be sure of though that the main factors were purely technical.

The sitting/pushing can be countered with the statement that it wasn't universal, not all tasks are executed while sitting, just look at the planing beam or how logs are/were sawn. Also it seem like sitting has changed over the course of the history, see ukiyo prints. Also a sitting carpenter position is very different from say a boxmaker sitting position. There's a very old silent film about Japan that shows works of a geta maker, somewhere from around 1890-1900. His working surface an off-cut of a beam roped to a big post, the height is about 2', and he switches from sitting to kneeling. He has to, because there's quite a bit of splitting and hewing, something that seems to be done by a machine nowadays, so contemporary makers utilize different body mechanics. A carpenter sits sideways, or squats in front of the beam, or even crouches over. The stump by the way is mentioned in one of the American woodworking books as a "Japanese traditional workbench", together with a very precise sketch of a ryoba accompanied with about a full page mentioning Japanese methods of work.

A "traveling craftsman" doesn't really explain it either: going out to work at a customer's place exists in pretty much every culture, yet most employ push saws. Smaller\lighter tools - idk, some of their saws use as much steel as a Western counterpart, a push saw would totally fit into a toolbox, a frame saw isn't too much heavier and can be assembled and disassembled pretty quickly.

This leaves us with the "thinner blades" option, but then a frame saw can also have thinner blade because it's under tension. Besides, woodworking came to Japan from China through Korea, and these cultures used frame saws exclusively. Japanese definitely knew about frame saws, that's in your link, they can be seen in famous ukiyo prints, but they seem to be reserved for sawing lumber, not joinery. Or at least I haven't seen prints or scrolls where it's being used for joinery akin how, say, Germans or Chinese use it. So pulling is not the only way to have a thinner blade, also a frame saw doesn't really have a direction, most frame saw people I know push or pull depending on a situation. Mostly push of course, but flipping it at the moment's requirement isn't a big deal.

Btw, while items from steel were expensive, iron and steel wasn't in shortage, at least not the way common opinion seems to imply. Japan was not only importing it in significant quantities (they were trading with China actively), and there were at least two major iron mining regions that covered all the needs of toolmaking industry. The idea that there were not enough steel in Japan seems to come from the times they re-oriented to become a dominant player in the whole Far East in 19-20th century - any country would scramble to find enough resources internally, as it's not about just digging some ore out, it's about not having required technologies after 300 years of isolation. Going from feudalism to the tip of the industrial revolution is never simple or cheap. Again, would they invent heavy maebikis if steel would be at such a premium?

My comment that sparked some controversy was an expression of a Shinto belief of many traditional woodworkers, that the Kami that reside in the wood, must be treated with reverence, and not disrespected.

Reading is an art. Nobody implied there's no spirituality. Of course it's there, as it is in every major culture in the world. I was arguing at where it is to be found. And also about definitions. Can't have a debate without agreeing on meaning of the words, can we?

But maybe you're right, I do have a pet peeve, because I've seen this subject abused on many, many occasions. Like when a total novice coming for an introduction class is basically mesmerized with mysticism, spirituality and mindfulness (bonus points for an Asian looking perpetrator, another point for being senior) and then being sold a Grizzly level chisel for 120$ and sent practicing with it as is, still with protective lacquer and factory ground edge. A failure and frustration is then used to sell another class, and a process repeated until a person just quits. I didn't say anything then, maybe this is some sort of internalized guilt or something, idk, Derek could diagnose it better. But I do notice this pattern too often, check out local Japanese tools users groups, you'll see the pattern. I have other examples, not necessary in woodworking. So let's maybe put a cap on it or just move to another thread.

Nakashima, I did not bring up his name, through I think the characterization of him was quite harsh. I say this as someone who was lucky enough to have met him, seen his work and shop as well, on many occasions in the 1980's
Also he wrote a book entitled The soul of a tree, so?

Nakashima's name came from the pamphlet you have linked to. The pamphlet is kinda funny, obviously written by someone not really exposed to the craft. I could bring quite amusing passages from there, but that's beyond the point.

What's harsh about admitting he was an architect? It's just the fact of his biography. He was also born and raised in USA, he travelled to Japan for a few years after graduating. But he was introduced to the traditional Japanese joinery during times and at the place Americans are ashamed of to these days. Did he tell you about this? This is also the fact of the biography. Not in Japan in other words, but in USA. He built early pieces himself, that's true, however you won't find intricate joinery there (you'll find something amazing on a higher level though). As soon as he could hire people - he did, he still designed the pieces, and was overlooking construction details personally, but eventually he hired a designer for that too. It's a common practice, it's just impossible to be everywhere, remember he had been working on architectural projects all over the world. The fact he hired people doesn't make him a lesser designer or a less important historic figure, we don't think that Greene&Greene weren't as good because they hired craftspeople, don't we? The furniture making part of his estate is probably 10%, rest is architecture projects, which are amazing, but they're "mid-century modern" or even "contemporary modern", there isn't a minka on the properties or even a tea house, but yeah there's elements of Japanese tradition everywhere. As well as other traditions.
He did write a book, yes, that's undeniable. But let's ask this question: was it during times he and his family lived in a tent at an abandoned farm lot and collected rain water, or after his name was known and his wellbeing has improved? I should probably restrain myself from the socratic method, but this is not to imply the book isn't genuine.

[Ray Bahr]

Hi All,

This became interesting - I don't say that in jest. I was very much into Martial arts for a while and studied some Japanese arts. So, I appreciate what was said about intent. That said, I have continued practicing and have had some improvement. I have relaxed my grip on the saw, been carefully sighting on the drawn lines, been aware of body position, etc, and there has been a definite improvement.

Thanks for the various inputs, and I will continue practicing...

Ray

[Edward Weber]

Great to hear

[chuck van dyck]

Haven’t follow this thread too much cause it was easy to predict where it was headed. But I will share the small amount of philosophical thinking I’ve put into it.

I think the pull motion is a bit more full body/grounded. A bit like Tai Chi.
The push motion is a bit more aggressive/light like boxing. Its similar in furniture design. A lot of eastern design tapers up or thick/grounded as the base. Western design tends to taper down or strong upper and light feet. What fits your lifestyle?

Again, I’m just making this up, but its an observation I’ve made. Obviously there are many exceptions to this, so please don’t explain boxing, tai chi, or furniture design to throughly, I get it. Just how I think about it.

I like a healthy mix of east and west tools. Perhaps because I am an Asian American myself. My family moved to Mississippi from Guangdong in ‘39. Grew up eating St Louis cut ribs with fermented black bean sauce and ginger.

That being said, buy a z-saw with a universal blade. Thicker kerf and cuts like a laser.

[Charles Guest]

Haven’t follow this thread too much cause it was easy to predict where it was headed. But I will share the small amount of philosophical thinking I’ve put into it.

I think the pull motion is a bit more full body/grounded. A bit like Tai Chi.
The push motion is a bit more aggressive/light like boxing. Its similar in furniture design. A lot of eastern design tapers up or thick/grounded as the base. Western design tends to taper down or strong upper and light feet. What fits your lifestyle?

Again, I’m just making this up, but its an observation I’ve made. Obviously there are many exceptions to this, so please don’t explain boxing, tai chi, or furniture design to throughly, I get it. Just how I think about it.

I like a healthy mix of east and west tools. Perhaps because I am an Asian American myself. My family moved to Mississippi from Guangdong in ‘39. Grew up eating St Louis cut ribs with fermented black bean sauce and ginger.

That being said, buy a z-saw with a universal blade. Thicker kerf and cuts like a laser.

The OP was having trouble cutting a straight line a distance of around 3/4" of an inch, for a dovetail joint. That's about four to five strokes for a 15 pt. western back saw.

[chuck van dyck]

The OP was having trouble cutting a straight line a distance of around 3/4" of an inch, for a dovetail joint. That's about four to five strokes for a 15 pt. western back saw.

Maybe a western back saw isnt the right fit for them. Also, that is extremely vague advice. I could watch a couple Paul Sellers videos and be convinced any old back saw, a file, some blocks of wood, and a vice is enough to get it working enough to cut great dovetails, but we know thats not how it works. If they are interested in pull saws, I’m offering a brand that I find to be affordable and extremely user friendly. Get your head out of your butt and think about how it was getting started.

[chuck van dyck]

Been practicing my handsaw use for some dovetail work, and I can't for the life of me get a plumb straight cut. I am using a Japanese pull saw, watched a ton of videos, but my saw always veers to the right of the line for the rear of the work. Been changing the height of the work, my body placement, and my grip, and the rear cut trends to the right of the line - the front is OK.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Ray

Did you watch Andrew Hunter’s video with Fine Woodworking? He uses an interesting technique where the workpiece is held in place against the bench by holding the saw vertically sawing downward. It really works quite well if you’re willing to squat.

Regardless of which continent your saw came from, think of the arm that is sawing as a piston and don’t let anything get in the way of its path. That should help regardless of what type of saw you use or how you hold it.