Trouble cutting a straight (plumb) line

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, you’re the man.

If I read correctly the OP said the rear always skews to the right. That would mean to me that every time he cut the grain was chasing to the right on the rear of every board otherwise it would chase left sometimes.

Jim, if the saw is cutting a straight, plumb kerb on the facing side, then all is well with the OP’s stance. Since it is only the rear side of the board where the kerf is skewed, this must be due to the grain and the thin blade. Therefore the solution is to saw to one side at a time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I'm still surprised that no one has mentioned the method I posted earlier. Most Japanese hand tool users will rip in the position I posted a pic of below. A Japanese rip saw will naturally cut much nicer when cutting fibers with the grain direction, similar to a western style rip saw when you tilt the handle towards the floor when the work piece is held vertical in the vise. I agree with Derek that the best method is to cut on the side your watching and flip the work piece over to complete the cut. But after getting the hang of it you shouldn't need to keep flipping, especially if you employ the technique in the pictures.

[Charles Guest]

Good Lord, what an uncomfortable looking position. My knees wouldn't make it through three cuts. Praise Be to Western Woodworking.

[mike stenson]

If you did it regularly, it'd be comfortable. Just like any other movement.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Others have probably mentioned it but you really cannot put any downforce on these saws or the backside of the cut will get squirrely even if the front looks good. The teeth have an aggressive rake so they don't really need any downforce. Just pull straight back with a light touch. You can try holding the handle in a loose way such that you can't really apply downforce. When you want to speed things up, think of moving the saw fast but not hard, if that makes sense.

[Rafael Herrera]

I'm still surprised that no one has mentioned the method I posted earlier. Most Japanese hand tool users will rip in the position I posted a pic of below. A Japanese rip saw will naturally cut much nicer when cutting fibers with the grain direction, similar to a western style rip saw when you tilt the handle towards the floor when the work piece is held vertical in the vise. I agree with Derek that the best method is to cut on the side your watching and flip the work piece over to complete the cut. But after getting the hang of it you shouldn't need to keep flipping, especially if you employ the technique in the pictures.

Bending over like the guy in the picture would certainly hurt my back. Kneeling in front of the bench just to be able to use the saw seems contrived to me. In many of the videos I've seen of japanese woodworkers using their saws, they've been sitting down and even holding their pieces with their feet, or like in the instance of the video above, standing over the piece.

https://youtu.be/P50VtDfQa1g?t=346

Using these saws standing up in front of a western workbench may work in some cases, but in others it just seems awkward, why bother?

[Jack Dover]

Every time someone mentions the right way of using Japanese saws - the post just gets ignored and a discussion moves on. Witness it yourself, lol.

[Jim Koepke]

Every time someone mentions the right way of using Japanese saws - the post just gets ignored and a discussion moves on. Witness it yourself, lol.

The eastern (including Japanese) traditions have been filled with ritual and spiritualism. Their tools were developed in this environment. The eastern tradition often has been to be seated for much of what western tradition has done standing.

The western traditions are much different than the eastern traditions.

Trying to work with eastern tools while using traditionally western methods will produce some problems in the blending.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

To add to Jim's points.
Most people know that Japanese saws and planes are pulled not pushed. This design is in part inspired by the philosophy that when working wood, giving it a second life as something new, there is an aspect of animism. Working with the wood and not against it, and having respect for the tree as well as what is being made.
Pulling the saw or plane towards ones body, rather that pushing it away, represents the drawing in of the spirit of the wood.

The technique in the photos posted may work for some but personally it's quite strange and awkward looking to me.

[Mel Fulks]

The Eastern tradition was to make the tools hard to use , so that the number of guys who could use the danged stuff
would be reduced , thereby protecting the jobs. Western tradition is easy to use stuff, and unions.

[Mark Rainey]

Good Lord, what an uncomfortable looking position. My knees wouldn't make it through three cuts. Praise Be to Western Woodworking.

Agreed Charles. And I have experimented with several Japanese saws for crosscutting hardwood. Even though razor sharp, the pull saws just don't crosscut 12 inch hardwood boards as easily as a good Western push saw.

[Jack Dover]

The eastern (including Japanese) traditions have been filled with ritual and spiritualism.

As one of my (Japanese) instructors liked to say: "of all traditional Japanese jutsus the most elaborate is the jutsu of parting gaijins with their money". Indeed there are rituals and spirituality, it's just a typical Westerner that learns from YT "suggested" section and Rockler catalogs doesn't get even close to any of the rituals. Any Japanese craft itself is pragmatic to the core, also every Japanese craft is ruthless in its attitude, and that's two main drivers behind their tools evolution.

Their tools were developed in this environment. The eastern tradition often has been to be seated for much of what western tradition has done standing.

Their tools were developed in a rapidly changing environment under quite a bit of Western influence, that's just a historic fact: most of the "traditional" (for some definition of "traditional") tools are from late 19th-early 20th century. Also, it's kinda too big of a jump from "spirituality" to the "sitting\standing", isn't it? How would you explain their sawyers who just can't work sitting, yet still their maebikis are pull? By the way, a whip saw or a pit saw - is it push or pull?

The western traditions are much different than the eastern traditions.

Yes and no. They're governed by different aesthetics and different societal norms, but they're the same in the sense that both traditions make it their main priority to arrive at a pre-defined result in the manner most efficient. You'll struggle a lot trying to make shoji or a bento with only Western tools, you'll also struggle a lot trying to build a heavy timbered house in dried white oak with Japanese tools only.

But I don't think this is relevant in the context of using a ryoba. It's a specific tool which assumes specific ways of usage, and pretty much like nobody tries to slice a steak with a spoon, nobody should be using a ryoba like a Western dovetail saw. Manuals are written for a purpose, right? And if a ryoba doesn't work for somebody's methods, why suffer, for internet points or what? We are not all daikus just because we are using Japanese tools and Japanese joinery. So get what works for yourself and be done with it.

[Jack Dover]

This design is in part inspired by the philosophy that when working wood, giving it a second life as something new, there is an aspect of animism.

Sure you have some credible sources to support this claim, haven't you?

[Eric Rathhaus]

I noticed in one of your posts you mentioned you had been spending time detail working recently. My question is whether you're using a metal working frame of reference for what is plumb. I find many times I fret to overcome a problem that only exists because my mid-century mind uses a degree of accuracy suitable for CMC age.

[Edward Weber]

Sure you have some credible sources to support this claim, haven't you?

it is not a "claim", it is simply part of a broader philosophy of Control over force.

Pulling a saw in towards ones body provides more control with less effort. Add to that the spirituality of the act of drawing the wood towards you and not pushing it away, there is symbolism there.
This is just one aspect of how the tools came to be known today
If you look closely, most all Japanese tools and techniques have this same element of drawing or pulling inward, providing a greater sense of control and connection to the wood.

Basically any Japanese tool reference that covers not just the function but the philosophy, culture and spirituality behind it.
Here is just one example.
https://downloads.ctfassets.net/zwqo...og4_5small.pdf


"Also unique to Japanese tools is the manner of how they are used. A number of Japanese
carpentry tools are pulled, rather than pushed, in order to cut or shape wood, unlike in
woodworking traditions in other locations such as China, Europe, and the United States.
The difference is especially notable in the case of saws and planes. Japanese carpentry has
evolved to prioritize control over force."