Lacquer Question

[James Jayko]

Hey all, I'm finishing up a chair project (Morris Chair from the Wood Whisperer Guild).

When the presenter finished the project, he used Waterlox first and then sprayed it with Sher-Wood lacquer. I have generally used water-based finishes when I spray. So my question is...is all lacquer mostly the same, or does the quality differ widely? Would you go through the effort to get Mohawk or some other high end project which isn't readily available, or can you use stuff like Watco from the big box store? I'll spray with HVLP, and strain all the lacquer, no mater what it is. I'm more concerned about the final product than the cost, so I'm not against going to a specialty store or whatever to get a better product if its warranted, just don't want to waste time or effort if unnecessary.

Looking for whatever input y'all might have!

[John TenEyck]

I would not use lacquer unless it was catalyzed. Even then, I don't see the point. Waterlox is an amazingly durable product by itself. The only reason I can think of to spray lacquer is to save time, not to improve durability. I would stick with Waterlox and just apply additional wipe on coats, especially on the arms, until you have the look and thickness you want. If you really want to spray something, I'd look at TC's EM-2000 oil modified varnish, or MinWax Oil Modified waterborne varnish. Both are waterborne and both are very durable.

John

[James Jayko]

I would not use lacquer unless it was catalyzed. Even then, I don't see the point. Waterlox is an amazingly durable product by itself. The only reason I can think of to spray lacquer is to save time, not to improve durability. I would stick with Waterlox and just apply additional wipe on coats, especially on the arms, until you have the look and thickness you want. If you really want to spray something, I'd look at TC's EM-2000 oil modified varnish, or MinWax Oil Modified waterborne varnish. Both are waterborne and both are very durable.

I often do things like this simply because its a finish I've not used and its fun to try something new. That said, Nobody wants to waste a bunch of time and money if there isn't much benefit.

Waterlox provides very little UV protection IIRC?

Out of curiosity, why would one shoot catalyzed lacquer over traditional lacquer? Quicker cure? Better protection? Better UV protection (the chair is made out of cherry)?

[Rob Sack]

First of all, I am a big fan of water based finishes, having been spraying them since the early 90's with great success. But I also continue to spray lacquer, both conventional and pre-cat. It depends on the look that I am after. Lighter woods look better with non-yellowing water based finishes and darker woods look better with solvent based finishes, although I have found some techniques and materials that allow me to get very close to a solvent based look using water based topcoats. I don't see anything wrong with using conventional lacquer on furniture although the use of pre cat will offer greater durability. Furniture finishers and re-finishers have been using lacquers for decades on everything from chairs to pianos and continue to do so. Although I have not used Waterlox, I have used and continue to use similar products for decades, especially when trying to achieve a hand-rubbed look. If the decision is to choose conventional lacquers, I would recommend a higher solid content material like Chem Craft, Gemini, or even Mohawk rather than something along the lines of Watco from a big box store. Building a surface coating is going to be considerable more difficult and time consuming with much longer drying times with a wipe on type finish like Waterlox, as opposed to spraying lacquer. Since you have access to HVLP spray equipment, spraying would seem to be the way to go. If TC's EM-2000, Minway Oil Modified waterborne varnish, or any other high quality water based finish will give you the results you want, this would also be an excellent choice.

[James Jayko]

First of all, I am a big fan of water based finishes, having been spraying them since the early 90's with great success. But I also continue to spray lacquer, both conventional and pre-cat. It depends on the look that I am after. Lighter woods look better with non-yellowing water based finishes and darker woods look better with solvent based finishes, although I have found some techniques and materials that allow me to get very close to a solvent based look using water based topcoats. I don't see anything wrong with using conventional lacquer on furniture although the use of pre cat will offer greater durability. Furniture finishers and re-finishers have been using lacquers for decades on everything from chairs to pianos and continue to do so. Although I have not used Waterlox, I have used and continue to use similar products for decades, especially when trying to achieve a hand-rubbed look. If the decision is to choose conventional lacquers, I would recommend a higher solid content material like Chem Craft, Gemini, or even Mohawk rather than something along the lines of Watco from a big box store. Building a surface coating is going to be considerable more difficult and time consuming with much longer drying times with a wipe on type finish like Waterlox, as opposed to spraying lacquer. Since you have access to HVLP spray equipment, spraying would seem to be the way to go. If TC's EM-2000, Minway Oil Modified waterborne varnish, or any other high quality water based finish will give you the results you want, this would also be an excellent choice.

Given that it sounds like you have a lot of experience and a deep knowledge of the products, what would you use on a cherry Morris chair? I'm open to anything. The thing that sounds like a big benefit to me about the lacquer (and I have no idea if I have this right or am way over generalizing or whatever) is that it burns into itself (if that's the phrase), making spraying a bit less stressful. Is that accurate, or no? IE solvent based is a bit more forgiving (but more caustic), while waterbourne is a bit more technique dependent but safer for your lungs?

I used Aquathane on a bed project and it was decent, but sanding down the final product (to correct my decent but definitely imperfect spray technique) didn't work so great. I know that's a poly finish, but I wasn't sure if it was the poly or water that gave it that layered finish?

[Rob Sack]

You are absolutely correct that one of the great benefits of lacquer is its ability to burn into the previous coat. It also dries quickly reducing the chances of foreign bodies landing in the wet finish. It also sands well between coats if sanding is necessary. One thing to consider, especially with lacquer is making sure you have adequate ventilation along with wearing a respirator. Actually, adequate ventilation and use of a respirator is critical for all types of finishes. When it comes to cherry, I almost always use a solvent based finish order to get the cherry to "pop". I have had some success with intitally spraying a coat of vinyl sealer first followed by a quality water based top coat. The end result was very close in appearance to spraying straight lacquer. But the vinyl sealer is solvent based, so for me it really doesn't make sense to swith to water base at that point. The other thing you might try is to spray a coat of shellac first, followed by a water based topcoat. But again your are switching solvents. If this were my chair, I would probably spray it just with pre cat lacquer. I use Chem Craft lacquers and both the conventional and pre cat spray equally as well with the pre cat being only slightly more expensive and offering a little better protection. I have sprayed new walnut with orange shellac followed by solvent based lacquer to match some existing 50 year old varnished walnut that had ambered with age. The match was near perfect. For your Morris chair, spraying an initial coat of orange shellac and then top coating with lacquer should mimic the warmth of aged cherry if that's the look you are after. As always, make multiple samples first before attacking a new piece of furniture.

[John TenEyck]

IME, uncatalyzed solvent borne lacquer has poor resistance to sweat and skin oil, which is exactly what the arms of a Morris chair are exposed to every time one sits in it with bare arms. It's the same degradation you see on tables finished with common lacquer where people's arms rest on the edge. I've seen plenty of both where the finish in those areas has turned into a sticky mess. Burn in means the finish can be redissolved. While lacquer thinner does it nearly instantly, oils and other chemicals will do it, too, over time. Finishes that truly cure will offer much higher durability against sweat and skin oil.

About UV protection. Not many finishes will slow down the darkening that naturally occurs when cherry is exposed to UV light. If you want the finish to retard that from happening you have to use a finish with not just UV protection, but a dual UV package. Typical UV additives help protect the finish, not the underlying wood. Kem Aqua Plus is one WB finish that does contain a dual UV package. I'm sure there are others.

John

[Jim Becker]

There is also the challenge of having a proper and safe spraying environment to use solvent based lacquer products...you still need PPE for waterborne, but in general, the products are not a fire/explosives risk and not going to be potentially deadly like the solvent based stuff can be. A lot of folks still spray the stuff without the proper environment, but that doesn't make it a great choice. Today's water borne products are pretty darn good. That all said...I agree with John that the Waterlox alone is an excellent finish for this kind of project.

[Prashun Patel]

On chairs I use wiping varnishes. I prefer to spray large, flat surfaces (tables) or high gloss items (guitars). But chairs, with their spindles and multiple planes, curves and interconnecting surfaces make it trickier to spray. Further, these features of chairs make it easier to wipe because it's easy to cover a surface quick. Swirl marks are a non-issue.

On cherry - to my eye - it is really hard to beat the appearance and durability of either Waterlox or Arm-R-Seal.

Another thing to consider is that these 2 varnishes can be applied very thin ("in-the-wood") by wiping on, and buffing off (the first 2 coats don't require buffing as they will completely soak in). But if you couple the buffing with some light sanding +600 grit, you will get a finish that is durable, silky smooth to the hands, and accentuates curl and color.

It is also easy to repair varnish applied this way. That being said, I did a walnut Maloof rocker with Waterlox Original Sealer Finish 12 years (yikes!) ago, and it still looks the same as on Day 1.

[James Jayko]

Thank you for all the info!

It seems like I might be trying too hard to find a reason to spray...I guess the reason is I have the sprayer. maybe I just start with the Waterlox, see how it looks, and take it from there. There is no reason I couldn't try ~3-4 coats of Waterlox and if I'm not happy, spray the lacquer, right?

[John TenEyck]

Make some test samples. I'll bet you see no improvement in appearance of those sprayed with lacquer over those done with Waterlox, in any combination. I'm sure a little testing with grease or oil will prove which one is more durable.

John