Be careful with ChatGPT

[Marc Rochkind]

ChatGPT is a great way to get your questions answered, and it's much faster than posting the question on Sawmill Creek. The problem is that the answers are very likely to be wrong. For example, here's an interaction I just had:

What's the difference between brush-on polyurethane and wipe-on?

Brush-on polyurethane and wipe-on polyurethane are two different methods of applying a protective finish to wood surfaces. Here are some key differences between the two:

Application method: As the name suggests, brush-on polyurethane is applied using a brush, while wipe-on polyurethane is applied using a rag or cloth. Brush-on polyurethane can be applied more quickly and is generally easier to control, while wipe-on polyurethane requires more time and effort to apply evenly.

Thickness of the coating: Brush-on polyurethane typically applies a thicker coat than wipe-on polyurethane, which means it provides more protection against wear and tear. However, this can also result in a thicker, more noticeable finish, which may not be desirable in certain situations.

Drying time: Wipe-on polyurethane dries more quickly than brush-on polyurethane, which means it can be recoated sooner. This can be an advantage for larger projects or for those who are working in a time crunch.

Ease of use: Brush-on polyurethane is generally easier to apply, particularly for those who are less experienced with woodworking or finishing projects. Wipe-on polyurethane requires more care and attention to ensure an even application.

In summary, brush-on polyurethane is typically faster and easier to apply, but results in a thicker coating. Wipe-on polyurethane takes more time and care to apply, but results in a thinner, more natural-looking finish. Which one to choose will depend on your specific project and preferences.

A succinct, well-written answer! But very wrong about which is "easier to control", "easier to apply", and which "takes more time and care to apply".

With an machine-learning AI system like ChatGPT, it isn't possible to know exactly where an answer comes from. But somehow in scanning and processing the various internet sources available to it, it decided that brushing is easier to control and is more likely to result in an even application. That's certainly not what Bob Flexner says in Understanding Wood Finishing! And not what you'd get with a conventional Google search, either.

[Edward Weber]

Don't worry, if the answer is wrong, Cunningham's law will kick in to sort it out.

[Andrew More]

Don't worry, if the answer is wrong, Cunningham's law will kick in to sort it out.

Maybe? Generally speaking Cunningham's law requires the wrong answer to be posted in a public forum of some sort. I don't see how this sort of mistake becomes public without somebody posting it here and then the correction would require MSFT to have some sort of feedback loop.

[Edward Weber]

An incorrect answer, like the one in the OP just had and posted, needs to be only copied once and it's all over.
TLDR, brush on is easier...
The Chatbot simply collected am amalgam of sources and somehow would up with the incorrect answer. It would seem that either the wrong answer is far too prevalent among the material it sourced or the chatbot algorithm came to the wrong conclusion somehow. Neither of which is a good outcome.
Obviously, humans will need to correct this since the chatbot can't, didn't or doesn't know it's incorrect.
If the ChatGpt could actually "learn" what the correct answer is (Cunningham's Law) you would be fine, but it doesn't seem likely

Any way you slice it, it's concerning

[Marc Rochkind]

Edward: I think your assessment is right. As I said, we don't know -- can't know -- what happened, but perhaps there are posts like this (made up, not real):

"My brother-in-law says that brush-on is easier. What do you all think?"

Followed maybe by reply posts of the form "your brother-in-law is wrong" or "don't listen to him." Hard maybe for ChatGPT to pick up as canceling the "advice."

Or, maybe even harder to deal with: "It's a myth that wipe-on requires no skill at all" or "Anyone who can hold a brush can apply brush-on."

[Andrew Hughes]

Isn’t this the law when it’s free.
You what you pay for? The Chat bot is probably taking more then it gives.
Bob Flexners book on finishing is almost as good as learning from experience. It should get you pointed in the right direction.
Good Luck

[Edward Weber]

Edward: I think your assessment is right. As I said, we don't know -- can't know -- what happened, but perhaps there are posts like this (made up, not real):

"My brother-in-law says that brush-on is easier. What do you all think?"

Followed maybe by reply posts of the form "your brother-in-law is wrong" or "don't listen to him." Hard maybe for ChatGPT to pick up as canceling the "advice."

Or, maybe even harder to deal with: "It's a myth that wipe-on requires no skill at all" or "Anyone who can hold a brush can apply brush-on."

Look at any comment/s under a YouTube woodworking video and you'll find statements like those.
Some are posted in error
Some are Ultracrepidarians
Either way a wrong answer is a wrong answer, the ChatGPT has no way a discerning which is correct.
To that end, we live in a time where everyone seems to be able to find a person or website that backs up their claim, regardless of objective facts. Google and the internet have made everyone correct about everything all the time, so long as they have an internet connection.
The Chatbots are subject to garbage in, garbage, just like anything else

[Andrew More]

Apparently it's not just wood working advice, there are a number of reports from a lot of different places that while you might save time writing up the report or whatever, you'll lose it all again checking for errors.

[Patty Hann]

I've noticed that when someone is asked a question, rather than say "I don't know the answer to that", he will say something/anything if he has even an iota of info about it (or even if he hasn't).
I was looking at a fine nozzle glue gun on Amazon and couldn't find any spec on the size of the nozzle opening, and I already had one with the typical nozzle size.
So I asked it in the question section, also stating that I needed to know exactly "what the mfr says the opening size is, no guesses please."
"It's about a quarter inch"... "It works really well"..... "Not sure but it looks like it's pretty small."
*sigh*

[roger wiegand]

I'll just say my experience with wipe on poly hasn't been so great and I prefer a brush (even more so since getting a really good one). Am I the source of the "wrong" answer?

[James Pallas]

I’m chuckling about this one. I prefer a brush. I guess on flat surfaces wipe on could be a bit easier. For edges, close corner, or uneven surfaces (spindles and such) the tips of a brush is better, IMHO. A good bristle brush for oil or a very fine nylon bristle for WB is good. Cheap brushes or those foam thing bubble makers are not good. A nice even wet coat keeping a wet edge and good light are key. I guess I would say that the job defines the method. And I have used both methods and much prefer a brush, a good quality one of the proper width and bristles.
Jim

[Edward Weber]

I'll just say my experience with wipe on poly hasn't been so great and I prefer a brush (even more so since getting a really good one). Am I the source of the "wrong" answer?

There are too many caveats in your answer. I don't think Chat bots understand subtleties.
IME, Prefer, a really good one.
You would have to expand on what you mean by your experience, why you prefer one over another and what, to you, is a really good brush.
That's far too in depth, they're better off with declarative answers like GOOD and BAD.

[derek labian]

You would do better to challenge ChatGPT if it gives you incorrect information or something you think may be incorrect:

What's the difference between brush-on polyurethane and wipe-on?

The main difference between brush-on polyurethane and wipe-on polyurethane is the method of application.


Brush-on polyurethane is applied by brushing the product onto the surface. It is typically thicker and requires fewer coats to achieve a durable finish. This makes it a good choice for large surfaces, such as floors or furniture, where a fast application is desired.


Wipe-on polyurethane, on the other hand, is applied by wiping the product onto the surface with a cloth or sponge. It is typically thinner and requires multiple coats to achieve the same level of durability as brush-on polyurethane. However, it is easier to control the amount of product applied and to achieve a smooth, even finish, making it a good choice for smaller or intricate surfaces, such as cabinets or trim.


In summary, brush-on polyurethane is thicker and faster to apply, but wipe-on polyurethane is easier to control and can produce a smoother finish on smaller or more intricate surfaces.

Followed up by your complaint:

A succinct, well-written answer! But very wrong about which is "easier to control", "easier to apply", and which "takes more time and care to apply".

I apologize for any confusion my previous answer may have caused. Allow me to clarify:


Wipe-on polyurethane is generally easier to control and apply than brush-on polyurethane because it is thinner and more forgiving. The thin consistency allows for easy application with a cloth or sponge, which helps prevent drips or brush marks. Additionally, wipe-on polyurethane can be built up gradually with multiple coats, which allows for greater control over the finish.


Brush-on polyurethane, on the other hand, takes more time and care to apply because it is thicker and can be prone to drips or brush marks. However, it is also faster to apply and may require fewer coats to achieve a durable finish.


In summary, wipe-on polyurethane is generally easier to control and apply, while brush-on polyurethane takes more time and care to apply but can be faster and require fewer coats.

You said you can't know the source, but you can easily get an idea:

Can you point me to some reference sources for that answer?

Certainly, here are a few sources that may be helpful for further reading:


Bob Vila's Guide to Applying Polyurethane: https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how...-polyurethane/
Popular Woodworking Magazine's Guide to Wipe-On Polyurethane: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/t...ply-wipe-poly/
Fine Woodworking Magazine's Guide to Brushing on a Smooth Polyurethane Finish: https://www.finewoodworking.com/2006...rethane-finish
These articles discuss the differences between brush-on and wipe-on polyurethane and offer tips and techniques for applying each type of finish. I hope you find them helpful!

[Edward Weber]

So, in your question and challenge, how exactly is ChatGPT helpful?
Wouldn't it be easier to simply locate and read the source material yourself, and think?

Asking a machine to justify an answer to a purely subjective question you don't agree with, seems like a waste. The ultimate answer to your challenge is to rely on what people who have actually applied the finish have determined.
What a novel idea.

Which is better, chocolate or vanilla?
A machine can no better answer this than the polyurethane question.

If a person or Chatbot that hasn't performed a specific task, neither one can give as good of an answer as someone who has. At best it's secondhand information.
There are enough ultracrepidarian humans giving poor advice, I personally don't need machines doing the same.