SCM nova S520 experience

[Jeff Roltgen]

New SCM Nova s520 approximately 1 year of service now. Last fall, I changed feed speed for the first time. BIG MISTAKE! Segmented infeed rollers somehow became wonky, very quickly deteriorating into 2 stuck segments. Stock fed under either of these caused entire roller assembly to raise up, then slam down, firmly enough to hear and feel through your feet as you stand nearby on the concrete floor. Naturally, quality of finish was no longer up to par.

Call tech support:
1> Requested a video. Sent shot of idler arm raising/slamming. Dismissed as normal operation, and was told, don't worry - can re-open if it is a problem. (Huh? then why did I call?)
2> Month later, tried to re-open support ticket. Problem only getting worse. Got ignored. Original tech absolutely refused to respond.
3> One week later, I read them the riot act, followed shortly thereafter by a response from a higher up manager. Says all communication will go through him now, and of course, need another video. This time, I sent one showing the effects of these rollers - even removing 1/32 to 1/16", you could see the rhythmic tracks that the problem rollers embossed into the hard maple lumber, with corresponding divots from the board vibrating each time the roller assembly slammed down. They agreed - stuck rollers. Told me they'd let me know next day ETA, as they had no parts immediately available. That was about December 19....
4> Figured at 6-7 weeks of quietly waiting for an overnight response, I should ask for an update.(around February 8). Five days later, still no response from same upper level manager on status.
5> Contacted sales rep, forwarded full string of emails. He forwarded to the head of surfacing division for the US. They said they'd check it out. Never heard a word.
6> Got back from vacation yesterday (10 more days elapsed), and lo and behold - there's an SCM package leaning against shop door. (ripped completely open, of course - way to go UPS)
7> Contact sales rep - any help available for the R&R? He says, contact same guy in upper management. They can help you through it. Right.
8> Found a YT vid this AM of a guy who purchased/rebuilt an older S520, with lots of details of removing /replacing head. Heck, he even fully dis-assembled the segmented feed roller assembly! Thanked him for giving me courage. Even though some parts have changed, I got the picture. 3 hours later, new segmented roller is in and working fine.
YEAH!

What's my point here?
1> Oh, how I wished I'd just bought and rebuilt an old one. Clearly, buying new gets you nothing but a smaller bank balance. Right at the top of list of worst customer service ever. Who cares that you just bought a couple of machines from them to the tune of $25k. Get over it, and fix it yourself. Just one big WTF, for any one considering purchasing a machine from SCM. As you've already guessed - no more Italian machines for me.
(Ironically, while wrenching on the SCM planer, my Felder rep called to check in on how I was doing with the shaper he sold me 2 years ago! Life's funny, right?)

2> Anyone know what in the world would cause a segmented roller on a brand new machine to do this? Cracked open the bad roller assembly, fully expecting a bent rod, broken spring or two, but everything seems in order. Very puzzled as to what caused it to malfunction.
Unless I can figure out just what went wrong, I've literally removed the speed change handle. Owner's manual simply states "carry out this change with the machine running", which is exactly what I did.

Thoughts, other than don't ever change speed again?

jeff

[derek labian]

Sounds about right regarding support. Can't help with the segmented roller. I think a lot of it comes down to internal disorganization and technical issues. I'm still waiting for a factory damaged repair motor from November 2021!

You say no more Italian, but have you had far better experiences with other vendors? I also wouldn't say buy used and repair; I needed a part recently that was a $500 option and now I'm paying $1400 as a spare part :/ It could get very expensive.

[Kevin Jenness]

What a maddening experience. I have nearly all used gear and expect to deal with stuff, but to buy new and have no support is crazy. I would raise a stink as high as possible just in case anyone in upper management at SCMI USA is listening. I guess you already did that, though.

Is there any mechanical explanation for a speed change to result in sticky infeed segments? It's strange that you found no obvious fault in the offending parts.

I always thought a segmented infeed would be nice, but...

[Jonathan Jung]

Jeff, I feel your pain with SCM. Their support is sometimes astonishingly poor. It's so frustrating I've wondered if I'll ever have to have a backup of every machine! That said, I've found Felder's support to be hit/miss too. I'm not sure what machine manufacturer at this point hits the nail on the head in every department. I guess if we have to deal with crap like this, we'd at least like it to be with a machine that's generally reliable. Read my thread on my WBS drama. I had to have my credit card withhold funds and even then, SCM didn't even care. However, my poor experiences are with parts and billing, not with tech support. I've found the tech guys to always call me back and help me through even one of my machines which is 33 years old.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I would raise a stink as high as possible just in case anyone in upper management at SCMI USA is listening. I guess you already did that, though.

I resent the fact that I'm forced to become what's referred to as a "hostile caller" just to get things done. It's not my intent to cultivate this behavior in myself, but seems we have no choice. The employees clearly are aware of the mess, but are overloaded and understaffed = no room to care any more. They have no choice in the matter either. Those that count are outside the loop of client feedback, well insulated from the mess they're making. It's the current model for modern, big business.

I'm learning more and more, if you speak clearly, succinctly, tell the truth and remain calm, these people don't know what to do with you. Scripted responses rule now, and corporate is so enamored with outsourcing CS to save money, if you have a problem outside script, you can be completely stuck. The fake American first names and chummy-ness quickly deteriorate into confusion when you start talking details on real issues.
Sorry, but have to mention, North America is serviced by Mexico division of SCM tech support, and the language barrier is awful. They really could not process what I was saying, ("uh- send video") and their responses clearly show a bare minimum ability to understand or intelligently respond in English. Incomplete, non-sensical sentences throughout all correspondence.

So yes, I complain, but as mentioned above, where else do you think you can go where it's better?
Only reasonable answer is simply; somewhere else. However, I'm now much less inclined to invest in another machine upgrade going forward.
And that helps no one.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I always thought a segmented infeed would be nice, but...

Kevin, I thought so as well, but you do need to adjust your approach just a little.
I've marked infeed side of planer to indicate where the rollers are split. This allows me to gang up narrow, plane-to-width boards and run through in a more calculated way.
If a narrow work piece is allowed to pass under one of the splits without another supporting the adjacent roller, it will leave a track mark on the edge as the board edge meets the seem and roller slides off. Tracking of multiple boards is improved, but that's the "catch". Not as difficult as it may sound to mitigate, but it is a factor to be aware of.

My all time favorite was my first Delta finishing planer, with it's rubber infeed roller. Some folks still recommend keeping a similar planer on hand, especially for the more delicate, thinner workpieces. Ran a 15" Grizzly for about 15 years with a metal serrated single piece roller. Wasn't bad, but when gang-planing as described, you'd have multiple boards moving at different feed rates and/or stalling, causing chatter marks, etc., so the segmented does make a difference for that operation.

As for all other operations and the finished result, this machine leaves ZERO snipe when bed rollers are pulled all the way down. I focus on that quality to keep me moving positively forward, as it's a luxury I never enjoyed previously.

Really tough not knowing what the bug is that caused the sticky-ness of the rollers. It's the " doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results" insanity I'd like to avoid. After watching the guy in the video, I guess I'm now able to pull the old one apart completely, clean/redress and make sure no parts are catching. In this way, I at least have another assembly/spare parts to work with if the issue arises again.

jeff

[Dave Roock]

Unacceptable "customer service" is far too common & it has zero to do with Covid. Appears that nobody at SCM has any repair experience with that machine - maybe they sell so few that service repair people have no knowledge. Plenty of useless "human resources" staff and far too few experts in product trouble shooting - maybe all the experts are in Italy ? (or nowhere )
I have recent situation with resolving unacceptable "manure" of "customer service". We contracted with a large national freight company ( who we really think are great in most respects) to pick up some freight at the airport and bring it less than 1 hour north. I ended up helping the driver (great guy) unload the crates into narrow storage area. Had already got a freight quote which was a little wrong ( too high by $200+) which I figured could be resolved. A few weeks later, the bill came over with a completely incorrect extra $500 charge, on top of the incorrect too high original amount. I called my useless rep to straighten it out. A few dozen wasted emails later, nobody was resolving anything with the most aggravating return replies. The useless nub of a rep finally said "Well I put in to charge off the bill" Stunning that he thought he was being useful. A "charge off" would have negatively impacted our credit, it was truly mindless. Since I had dealt with a different national company's similar worse "manure" a few years prior, I was determined to make everything correct. Instead of any more attempts to resolve with the usual suspects, I wrote a letter explaining the entire story & mailed it attention to the top 3 people at that company. In less than 24 hours after letters arrived there, I had an immediately corrected invoice with an apology from someone working just below one of those people. Not sure if this will help anyone, but the cost of 3 letters in large priority mail envelopes was minimal & resolution was immediate. Hilarious that the useless nub of a rep sent a message how he saw the charges had been reduced, etc. I informed him the ONLY reason the invoice was corrected was because I sent 3 letters to the 3 top people at your company. I would bet he had received a call from someone near the top : > )

[Erik Loza]

So, you are a one-person shop and considering the purchase of a piece of industrial equipment from a dealer who may not have a physical location or service center near you? Questions that should be asked during the evaluation process:

-When (not “if”, but WHEN) my machine breaks down, what will the process look like to get it fixed?
-How long will that process take?
-Who is shouldering the cost burden if a tech needs to come on-site?
-Is there an independent tech in the area you can connect me with?

Yes, service has always been a challenge for any manufacturer but the responsibility is at least 50% the customer’s. After all, you did make the decision to purchase an industrial planer or widebelt that is really targeted toward commercial shops who typically have staff electricians, purchasers, MRO budgets, etc. Not saying folks aren’t entitled to have a bitter taste in their mouths but it can’t be all the manufacturer’s fault.

All this being said, if I were personally going to buy a brand for my own shop, it would be a Felder. They are really the only company in this sector of the industry that has technical support staff experienced at helping small shops and, as far as I know, the only vendor will actually can offer a commissioning service for one-off machines like these.

Erik

[Dave Roock]

So, you are a one-person shop and considering the purchase of a piece of industrial equipment from a dealer who may not have a physical location or service center near you? Questions that should be asked during the evaluation process:

-When (not “if”, but WHEN) my machine breaks down, what will the process look like to get it fixed?
-How long will that process take?
-Who is shouldering the cost burden if a tech needs to come on-site?
-Is there an independent tech in the area you can connect me with?

Yes, service has always been a challenge for any manufacturer but the responsibility is at least 50% the customer’s. After all, you did make the decision to purchase an industrial planer or widebelt that is really targeted toward commercial shops who typically have staff electricians, purchasers, MRO budgets, etc. Not saying folks aren’t entitled to have a bitter taste in their mouths but it can’t be all the manufacturer’s fault.

All this being said, if I were personally going to buy a brand for my own shop, it would be a Felder. They are really the only company in this sector of the industry that has technical support staff experienced at helping small shops and, as far as I know, the only vendor will actually can offer a commissioning service for one-off machines like these.

Erik

r

Hello Erik, It was not a "one off machine" situation - Derek had bought at least 2 machines at over $25,000. Since these machines were approximately 1 year old they were most certainly under warranty = 100% of the responsibility is on SCM legally in this situation. The level of disgustingly horrible customer "service" was 100% unacceptable. Once upper management claimed all communications had to go through him, no more excuses were acceptable. If it was a large company with a staff maintenance electrician that would have been equally irrelevant. Under warranty implies such worker would not be needed or expected to have the technical expertise to fix that machine. Corporate thought of "Well it is only one customer" is why many companies go out of business. Because it is NEVER just one customer - it is every person who reads this story, every person they tell about it, every person thinking about upgrading/downgrading on SCM machinery. A manager who actually cared & was not inept would have resolved the customer's machine issue that was under warranty. Because positive stories and positive reviews result in far more business than one person or one company will ever buy. This story says do not buy SCM if you expect SCM to honor their warranty on their products. I would recommend Felder also but they lack machines in inventory here in the USA. SCM has many machines here, just don't expect service if your machine breaks down.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Hmm... According to Erik, I'm really just too small to enjoy this level of machinery. Shame on me. What a fool I am for believing that investing in a higher grade of machinery was going to improve my output, quality and stand up to the reliability they are so venerated for. Moreover, SCM is perfectly within their rights to push out a slug here and there, as these commercial shops have denizens to keep busy any way. In doing so, SCM is being proactive in assuring job security for Americans. Wow. My eyes have finally been opened.

Simple translation: No one on this forum has any business buying these upper-class machines, even one like myself, making a living with them, as I'm really, just not a legitimate commercial entity*.

(*Then why did Erik camp out here as a rep, seeding the crowd towards purchasing these machines? ALSO:
Would someone please inform the IRS that I don't count as a business so I may enjoy a lower level of taxation?)

Anyway, I DID accept responsibility, without guidance, successfully repaired the machine, and won the day. I gave my 100%.
The discouragement is not appreciated, but I accept. If I've learned nothing, it's at least been made clear that we all should lower our expectations. To anyone lurking, thinking about the next high-end machine investment for your business, at least you can benefit from this little gem of clarification of how the industry truly views you, the client, in general. At least we've finally gotten to the truth of the matter.

Good thread.

jeff

[Phillip Mitchell]

This is why I buy used industrial machinery for 1/4 the price of new and already have the expectation going in that factory support will be minimal to nonexistant and resort to fixing issues myself and/or out of pocket via third party.

Jeff, this sucks that a) this was your experience (of neglect and lack of ownership of warranty support/claims) after so much $$ was spent and b) that the general attitude among manufacturers is that you fall into some black hole of not “commercial / big business” enough to warrant any grease on your squeaky wheel despite dropping ~ $25k on new machinery.

There is literally no reason to spend the coin and buy new industrial machinery if you don’t actually have real dealer / manufacture / warranty support...

[Kevin Jenness]

I get that few if any mfrs are going to send a tech to fix a warrantied machine, but dropping the ball for three months on supplying replacement parts, lack of expert advice on rectifying the problem and complete failure to communicate is unacceptable. If "it can’t be all the manufacturer’s fault", Erik, where is the fault on the part of this customer? If he had asked SCM your list of questions, would they have accurately described the scenario that unfolded? As Philip said, "There is literally no reason to spend the coin and buy new industrial machinery if you don’t actually have real dealer / manufacture / warranty support..."

[derek labian]

Jeff / Erik,

I think you guys are just talking past each other. Erik has no dog in this fight; he's just trying to give a different perspective.

It's a standard expectation that as you double, triple, or quadruple your spending on equipment, the support will improve and not degrade, and it's counter-intuitive to think otherwise.

Jeff, you had a mechanical failure and seemed more than patient waiting for a fix (which you eventually got). No one here would argue that your experience was highly frustrating.

Erik's point is that if you buy a $3500 Sawstop, you can pick up the phone, talk to a tech in 5 minutes, and have spare parts shortly after. So if you spend $35,000 on an SCM saw, you will also be able to do at least that, and it's just not the case (in my experience).

SCM needs better communication in Service, and it comes down to serving equipment from $3,500 to $350,000 through the same pipeline. The small fry gets dropped because SCM is oriented toward the big ones. So to further Erik's point, when your buy from an industrial company, you play in an industrial sandbox.

I would think it's akin to buying a Ford Taurus, where you take it to the service center and wait in the lobby, or a D7 Dozer, where you're expected to have an understanding of hydraulics, tracked machines and have some level of ability to read the schematics and Service the equipment. Unfortunately, good Service is expensive, and SCM hasn't built much service margin into the cost of machines.

The SCM documentation was pretty well written and complete considering the complexity of some of these units and how few they must sell. "Help myself" has worked for me in most cases.

Derek

[Jeff Roltgen]

One last bit of clarification:
1> My sales rep resides in this state, and visits my business, at least twice a year, in person. This is likely because I've purchased many tens of thousands in machinery from him over the years and I don't approach him asking for financing. He just gets a check, as I 've been budgeting, planning and researching for quite a while, at that point.
2> They have a service technician of their own, as they are on the other end of the state, serving a larger industrial sector there. That very same technician was paid by an American machine manufacturer to come out and replace parts on a different machine in my shop a few years ago that had a factory defect upon it's arrival.
3> This distributor has a branch store just 15 minutes drive from my location, where I regularly buy sundries and consumables, in between ordering larger machines.

So yes, in a way, all those pertinent questions an intelligent buyer should ask, were already answered, based on prior experience with said distributor.

As a hard-working, passionate, American male woodworker, I am becoming more resentful of the fact that I'm more frequently being told I'm a part of the problem, while large corporations continue to take more, give less, and not care in the least, once that check is cashed.

Someone, please, tell these sales reps that I'm the last person they should be selling machinery to, as I'm so clearly a part of "the problem".

[Jeff Roltgen]

Derek,
"...or a D7 Dozer, where you're expected to have an understanding of hydraulics, tracked machines and have some level of ability to read the schematics and Service the equipment."

Exactly - it's not a lunchbox planer that I putter around with on the weekends, with little to no understanding of the inner workings. It's a $15k industrial machine that I rely upon to make a living. It's there because I do understand exactly how the inner workings operate, and what I wanted to upgrade, given years of full time experience and many hours of tweaking and wrenching on woodworking machines, including a full rebuild of my old planer. That's why I bought new. I needed an upgrade, not another mechanical repair project.

All I asked for, all along, was some sort of guidance:
1> is there some procedure not listed in the manual that I'm missing? Did I do something to cause the issue? (= taking responsibility as the end user)
2> Can you follow through with your promise to give me an ETA on the part?
3> Now that it's suddenly here, can you provide some assistance regarding repair procedure, such as those supplied to the field technicians, to help simplify and accurately expedite the repair?

NO RESPONSE.

Not sure why that's so hard to understand. You really think they took the time to research my business and decide I should be ignored? I'm not that important, and they clearly are beyond overloaded to even notice anyone's name or have a split second to care.

So, I put on my big boy britches, carried out a repair that, based on dollars invested on a manufacturer's reputation, felt assured I should not have had to do for at least a decade or so.

Consider this: 2 year warranty on the machine. Now, there's another year warranty left on a machine that was repaired by an unauthorized technician. What kind of support do you think I'll get now? Do you feel those are the actions of a competent, well functioning organization, shoving a complex repair on an untrained end user, such as myself? Would be a pretty clever way to deny the remainder of the warranty period, if need arises, no?

I'm done defending myself. Just realize, I'm trying to state in simplest terms the facts of the situation to help others step into a future transaction with said company with open eyes. Strange, how many ways I'm being told; I'm not large enough to help, likely a bit more inept than I realize, and these corporations really are fully justified in ignoring a small shop for all the above reasons.

Okay. I vow to never buy an industrial grade machine for my business again, and would discourage any others who are delusional enough to think that, just because they run a successful small business, doesn't mean they've earned the right to purchase such machinery and grow their own business.
Step aside, you silly luddites - these machines are for the big boys only!

BTW: have you received the latest Holiday Weekend Sale e-mail flyer from SCM yet? Limited Time! Hurry! Don't miss out!*



*I received a couple of these emails as I was waiting for tech support responses. Just insulting, being enticed to buy what we're apparently not entitled to own.