Rob Cosman Video on cutting perfect dovetails first attempt

[Ben Ellenberger]

Doesn’t the Rob Cosman method require you to cut the tails first?

I think pins first is self-evidently the superior method. And don’t get me started about cutting the waste vs. chopping it!

[Jim Koepke]

Doesn’t the Rob Cosman method require you to cut the tails first?

I think pins first is self-evidently the superior method. And don’t get me started about cutting the waste vs. chopping it!

If my memory is working when Glen Drake was demonstrating the offset method it could be done pins first or tails first.

Pins first or tails first, the superior method is whichever works best for the person cutting them. Being able to cut them either way is a great asset.

One advantage of cutting tails first is being able to gang cut multiple tail boards. With pins first gang cutting doesn't work.

jtk

[Jack Dover]

Yeah, we all have a "you're sucker" box or a drawer, I definitely have, no matter how embarrassing it is to admit.
Btw, I dug through books and indeed Bernard's illustration suggest using a tenon saw for tails transfers. I might find the illustration with the offsets eventually.

IMG_5512.jpeg IMG_5511.jpeg

[Jack Dover]

One advantage of cutting tails first is being able to gang cut multiple tail boards.

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

[Jack Dover]

Pins first woodworkers unite!

[steven c newman]

Pins first...gets tighter joints

[Jack Dover]

What I have against Gent's saws (at least the ones I've used) is that they have very fine teeth. They work, but they're slow.

The Veritas you mean? Yeah, LV might have offered different TPI, their gents saws are the bee's knees. I'm actually using "Sheffield" gent saws — it's from the company that used to be knows Garlic&Sons. Not sure who owns them today, but this manufacturer produces gents saws for other brands - Lynx, BigHorn, etc. It looks like every brand has its own specs, 'cos I have identically looking saws in 12TPI and 16TPI.

I used a dozuki for years and it's kind of the same thing - very fine teeth. But the dozuki was cheap and it was what I could afford at the time.

The most actively marked dozuki's are indeed too fine and invariably crosscut (there's a special name for the rip dozuki and they're super hard to come by). My problem though is the blade thickness, it's so fine that it doesn't track right in domestics starting at around 3/4" - it makes a gentle curve. But I've seen and used dozuki with less TPI and stiffer blade. Today it's not a big deal though, there was a guy who taught me to cut dovetails with a ryoba or a kataba, never looked back. Btw, if those "Shashimono" YT videos is any indication how Japanese cabinetmakers work, then they don't care about the saw, the craftsman from the video cuts full-blinds with an azebiki.

When I have some time, I'm going to try making a practice set of dovetails with a panel saw, just to see what effect the saw has.

It is totally going to work, assuming you can get a well tuned saw. Surprisingly, there are some hard tooth brands that are well set on the factory. Mike Siemsen (of the Naked Woodworker fame, the man who made Nicholson benches popular and a really, really underappreciated woodworker in general) had a class where he made a small pine chest (I guess?) out of 1x using only an Irvin hard tooth saw and two chisels.

Personally I believe kerf width doesn't matter as long as there's enough waste for it. The key is keeping it as close to a line as possible. I've started with an offset back saw with a reversible handle. It was quite a crude tool even when it was new, and even after a shop teacher filed and set them properly. I thought that was my problem - the kerf is too large, — so I went looking for modern saws with thin blades. A few years back I was going through my American backsaws. They all have thicker blades than English saws or the modern saws (American made tools tend to be beefier in general), so it got me thinking how they managed to build all those fine pieces with tools like that? I've pulled some scraps and cut some dovetails with different saws: Veritas, a no name brand from India, a NOS Lynx, etc. I even tried a hack saw just for the kicks. Couldn't really tell which tail was cut with what saw the next day.

[mike stenson]

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

Depends on how many drawers you're doing. It also makes exposed dovetails on casework a mirror image, which is nice. I always, at least, do both sides of a drawer together (and case sides). If nothing else, it keeps the joints visually identical.

Edit: I actually find it easier to hit 90º with a 2" thick 'board' than 1/2" thick.

The only thing I have against 'gents saws' is that it's harder for me to feel it's orientation.

[steven c newman]

Ya know what..I think that later on today.....
The Boxmaker, parts for one box.JPG
I might just start to turn these 6 parts into a box....with through dovetails...
Thursday Troubles, Combo square .JPG
Large combo square in use..
Wednesday, tools used .JPG
Saw to be used..small combo to carry lines around..I do have a better mallet, though...

Box sides and ends are 1/2" thick, resawn Ash..so, we'll see...

[Jim Koepke]

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

If your prone to screwing things up then possibly. If you really want to screw up, try power tools. They screw up faster.

Mike posts some good reasons for doing multiple pieces together:

Depends on how many drawers you're doing. It also makes exposed dovetails on casework a mirror image, which is nice. I always, at least, do both sides of a drawer together (and case sides). If nothing else, it keeps the joints visually identical.

Edit: I actually find it easier to hit 90º with a 2" thick 'board' than 1/2" thick.

The only thing I have against 'gents saws' is that it's harder for me to feel it's orientation.

It can also save time with your sawing, especially if a coping/fret saw is used to remove the bulk of the waste.

Pins first...gets tighter joints

A bit more than nine years ago it was too cold in the shop and too crowded in the house to glue up a drawer's dovetail joinery. My intention was to do the glueing when the weather got warmer.

Too Cold To Glue For glue Dovetail.jpg

Still after all these years a glue up round tuit hasn't come along nor has it been needed.

If those were any tighter, that soft white pine would have probably been split in places by now.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

A bit more than nine years ago it was too cold in the shop and too crowded in the house to glue up a drawer's dovetail joinery. My intention was to do the glueing when the weather got warmer.

Too Cold To Glue For glue Dovetail.jpg

Still after all these years a glue up round tuit hasn't come along nor has it been needed.

If those were any tighter, that soft white pine would have probably been split in places by now.

jtk

I have to ask, a dovetailed drawer on a screwed together bench?
(just teasing)

[steven c newman]

2 corners done...compare a dry fit of Pins first..
Dovetails, day 1, dry fit 1.JPG
and because I thought I'd try..tails done first...
Dovetails, Day 1, Done tails first .JPG
I think I'll go back to pins first...
Dovetails,Day 1, compared .JPG
IF nobody minds...

Saw used?
Dovetails, Day 1, pins sawn .JPG
Disston No.4, 14", 9ppi...
Dovetails,Day 1, half chopped.JPG
Show face gets half chopped...finish up with the inside face..
Dovetails, Day 1, pins chopped.JPG
Just over an hour IN the shop, today...

[mike stenson]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did

[Jim Koepke]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did

LOL!

One time in my practice sessions one of the last dovetail joints of the day was cut pins first instead of tails first. It fit better than all the previous joints cut during the practice session. The next joint was cut tails first and demonstrated it wasn't the pins first approach making the joint tighter, it was all the practice improving my saw handling before cutting the joint.

It used to be my dovetail joint cutting for something like a drawer would finish the back joints first because they always improved the look of the front's dovetail joints.

Now a few practice dovetail joints are cut in scrap before cutting them on a project. Kind of like warming up before a ball game.

I have to ask, a dovetailed drawer on a screwed together bench?
(just teasing)

I know it is just a tease, but it was too cold to glue in the shop and it was a quick "get er done" project. There is some mortise and tenon and a lot of half lap joints there. It is now pretty much dedicated to holding my power sharpening system on the top and old rusty stuff on the bottom shelf.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did

I was kidding about pins vs. tails. Everyone knows it is pull saws vs western saws!

Although, to be serious for a minute, I agree with someone above. The Japanese back saws with super fine cross-cut teeth are not my favorite for cutting dovetails in stuff that is 3/4” or thicker. They are pretty nice for very thin boards. Sometimes I choose the saw based on which one is quickest to grab, and things still seem to work out OK.

If you have ten different people all saying their variation gets the best results, isn’t that pretty good evidence that the details don’t matter that much?