Why the belt sander and not a plane for the hand cut dovetails?

[Derek Cohen]

https://www.barth-maschinenbau.de/en...amping-device/

I have a Barth bench and a Traditional workbench. I love the vertical clamps for the Barth perforated top (22mm as opposed to the 20mm with Festool). For the workbench, there are only rectangular holes for the bench dogs to use with the vices. I was thinking of drilling holes to use hold downs on my traditional workbench, and was wondering if the above clamp would be as good or better than the traditional hold down. I already have several of the Barth (Bessey makes these), but surely it is not "traditional looking". I tend to favor what works best.

Joel, the bottom line is use what you find helpful. If you have a bunch of Barth vertical clamps, and you like them, then use them. If you have to drill holes in your bench specially for them, then select the spots and do so.

I have two benches, one a traditional Roubo-style with leg vise and tail vise. This bench has square dog holes along the front apron, and then just a few round 19mm holes bored for hold downs. Here I rely on two types, the Veritas and the Gramercy. You can see both here ...




I really do not want many round dog holes in this bench as tiny objects fall through!!!

Very recently, I built a MFT bench. This is longer than the Festool MFT but uses the same 20mm hole spacing. This bench is primarily for work holding for power tools ... although in the picture below it is being used for a mitre jack (mitred dovetails) ...



Here you can see different Veritas hold downs. These can work in the 20mm holes, but are not ideal. I have just purchased two of the following from Banggood (I do not know if they are made by anyone else) - they are truly excellent quality - all aluminium. Very solid ...





There are Festool and Bessey clamps like yours for 20mm holes. Personally, I find this style less comfortable to tighten. The advantage of all the ones I use is that they are easily adjusted. All are rock solid.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

When I make dovetail drawers, I use a Keller jig and I made some modifications for it's use on a router table (here is a picture of my jig). Very efficient and they look nice, but really not major skill involved. I make the pins a bit proud and use a random orbit sander to sand them flush. I am now focusing on improving my hand tool skills .... I think I have used sanders and machines on occasions when it would have been better to use chisels and planes. I was thinking one example was where perhaps I should have used a block or other plane instead of my random orbit to get the pins flush. Then... I see this video of a skilled guy who clearly can make dovetails with chisels.... and then he reaches for a belt sander! Huh.



Attachment 494884

Joel: thanks for posting that video: its great to watch a master craftsman at work. As far as belt sanders go, I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building. The dilettantes among us may scoff at this, but IMHO it makes sense for his method of work, i.e., make museum quality Shaker furniture and make a modest living doing it. I've read all his Fine Woodworking articles and seen most of his videos and I would suggest you can learn an awful lot by doing the same. Christian exhibits skills that most of us will never achieve and does this all in a unpretentious manner. I would also suggest that you visit his website to see some of his work: truly outstanding! Phil

[Thomas McCurnin]

I have no problem with using a belt sander. If one actually watches the video, he probably taking off less than a 64th as the belt sander is on the drawer side less than a few seconds.

That said, we were taught to use a 1" chisel at an angle (skewing) to trim the tails.

You'll have to sand or use a scraper to clean up the drawers anyway, so a belt sander is not so bad.

[Charles Guest]

Joel, I am going to appear very snooty when I say that that video and method by Becksvoort is a poor example of dovetailing and preparing a drawer. I simply cannot imagine that drawer fitting anything but loosely.

He does not saw to lines but leaves some to pare away with chisels. His chiseling is sloppy. He may be a whole lot better at using a belt sander - and possibly the only one to use this method - but the method must round over edges. The drawer looks reasonable from 6 foot. (A very good driend of mine, Chris Vesper, who is one of the best woodworking tool makers in the world, said to me that he was very disappointed by Becksvoorts drawer fit. Now I know why).

I don’t claim to be a professional, and I am not under the same time constraints, but I have friends who are high-end pros, and my drawers are up to their standards. It is not a race for me. Perhaps it is unfair, then, to compare how I do it with Becksvoort, who is working against the clock. The point is, you are not a professional doing the same either. There is no need to take shortcuts. What do you want to see when you look back on the work in a few years - a piece reflecting quality, or a memory of winning a speed race?

Becksvoort’s approach to marking out is very different to my own. If you want to watch videos of a style and method that I would support, watch Rob Cosman. In my own work, there is usually no waste to plane or pare away. This is deliberate. When fitting drawer fronts for a close fit, one does not want to alter their dimensions later (in this case with a belt sander - ugghh!).

I recently posted on the WoodCentral forum a series of links (on my website) for drawer-making. This may interest you, if only to give you an idea of what goes into the making of piston-fit drawers …

https://www.woodcentral.com/home/for...6373#gsc.tab=0

Regards from Perth

Derek

He cuts his drawers loose and has acknowledged why -- how do you fix a client's summertime jammed drawer when it's 2,000 miles away? He could cut them so tight they'd jam if somebody were making tea in the kitchen.

[Jim Koepke]

He cuts his drawers loose and has acknowledged why -- how do you fix a client's summertime jammed drawer when it's 2,000 miles away? He could cut them so tight they'd jam if somebody were making tea in the kitchen.

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

Jim is spot-on. Movement takes place across the grain, not with the grain. Drawer sides are likely to move up and not across the drawer case. Drawer fronts ditto. Consequently, we leave room to expand by taking away material from the top of a drawer and not the sides.

In other words, beltsanding the sides is all about fast smoothing and no other purpose. It is both fast and imprecise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Gelman]

https://www.finewoodworking.com/issu...2-mar-apr-2023

He is the new "Coverboy" in FWW

[Derek Cohen]

Joel,

Becksvoort has written for FWW for many, many years. Personally, I think some of his articles are excellent and some of them show poor technique. He is a much-loved personality, and this accolade is well-deserved. He has given back a lot.

Still does not make using belt sanding drawer sides a method to emulate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I have to agree with Derek. He uses a belt sander because he lacks skill with a plane.

[Charles Guest]

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

[Warren Mickley]

You'll have to sand or use a scraper to clean up the drawers anyway, so a belt sander is not so bad.

Only if you don't know how to use a plane.

[Derek Cohen]

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

Charles, did you read what I wrote about expansion in wood, specifically drawers?

There is no need to made the drawers loose in the places he does. I have also built furniture with drawers and sent it to different parts of Australia (on several occasions), where the levels of humidity are vastly different from one another. I made the drawers a slip fit at the sides, and send them off. Never had a problem.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

At the risk of repeating myself:

Joel: thanks for posting that video: its great to watch a master craftsman at work. As far as belt sanders go, I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building. The dilettantes among us may scoff at this, but IMHO it makes sense for his method of work, i.e., make museum quality Shaker furniture and make a modest living doing it. I've read all his Fine Woodworking articles and seen most of his videos and I would suggest you can learn an awful lot by doing the same. Christian exhibits skills that most of us will never achieve and does this all in a unpretentious manner. I would also suggest that you visit his website to see some of his work: truly outstanding! Phil

[Jim Koepke]

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

I'm missing which post is it with anyone saying or implying the above?

The only thing seemingly implied, imo, is Mr. Becksvoort uses a sander to speed up his process. Plus maybe it is easier than using a plane or chisel.

Drawers that fit snugly side to side do not have to be snug top to bottom which is where almost all of the expansion occurs with changes in humidity.

With consideration for materials used and well proven construction techniques a furniture maker in Maine will not have problems with their work being moved to any other part of the country.

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

In other words, beltsanding the sides is all about fast smoothing and no other purpose. It is both fast and imprecise.

Not necessarily. Maybe the people saying only a plane or chisel can be used to precisely flush dovetails and tune up the fit of a drawer don't know how to use a belt sander. In the hands of an experienced and careful person it can be both productive and accurate. So can a well tuned plane. I'm not going to defend the fit of Chris Becksvoort's drawers as I have never put hands on one, but if they are loose as an old sneaker it's not necessarily because he uses a belt sander.